make anime conventions better

Conventions and other events, fandom, stores, manga-ka, animators, and other people, etc
davemerrill
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Re: make anime conventions better

Post by davemerrill »

I think I see what you're getting at, a rash of "for profit" nerd-culture events saturating the area, "bad money driving out good" as they say. I think I know who you're talking about when you say "people who RUN these "entertainment for bronies/tweens/overgrown-manchildren" events", too.

To be honest, I think anybody trying to make a living through small, regional fan conventions... they ought to step up to the big money working at McDonalds, is what they ought to do. Fan conventions aren't the path to riches. After the convention bills are paid, there isn't a lot of cash left over for things like salaries.

Seriously, though, you have highlighted some definite problems. What are your solutions?
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Re: make anime conventions better

Post by SteveH »

Point of order re. Dealers.

They kill themselves.

I would bet big money that were I to see the table of one of these dealers that is saying "nobody is buying anime stuff" I would see a sea of seriously overpriced stuff, exactly the same stuff the other sellers have. 2,400 Yen Artbooks priced at $50-75. Current American manga at cover price. Figures, like Revoltech or Figma, again 2,500 Yen items at $50 and up.

Whatever they can get from Diamond or Image Anime (and the several other shadow companies they work under), whatever is new RIGHT NOW.

And of course trying to sneak the bootleg stuff in, the wall scrolls, the phone straps, the t-shirts blah blah.

They rode high and fat during the boom. Now they must learn to adapt or die.
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Re: make anime conventions better

Post by Heero »

davemerrill wrote:I think I know who you're talking about when you say "people who RUN these "entertainment for bronies/tweens/overgrown-manchildren" events", too.
I know you know at least one, but I've been personally solicited by several. The one I'm fairly certain we both know knows my opinion on it and we're ok with each other.
Fan conventions aren't the path to riches. After the convention bills are paid, there isn't a lot of cash left over for things like salaries.
If you pull in enough people and cut enough corners, you can do alright (assuming the bottom doesn't fall out). You can at least beat minimum wage, and for some of these people that's "living the dream". You and I both know some people will keep going to a convention on "momentum" even if they're annoyed with the "management".
Seriously, though, you have highlighted some definite problems. What are your solutions?
I'm honestly not sure what CAN be done from this end. Like I said, I know many con management groups ARE the problem and you can't just tell them to "go away" or "stop trying to profit from it". What I've done is not support the "bad" cons and ideally all the anime industry pros would stop going to them too. But the problem is (like I said before) everyone wants their cut, and as long as those groups "pay" everyone will continue to "play".

My only solution for now is to run a convention and try to explain to people that we ARE specifically about anime and keep proving that day after day. But like you, I'm not young anymore and it's starting to wear me down. It disappoints me endlessly to see people like this forums residents basically say cons "aren't worth going to". And for most cons, I TOTALLY understand and agree, but how do you convince people that "but this one is different". PAC had that same problem.
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Re: make anime conventions better

Post by Heero »

SteveH wrote:I would bet big money that were I to see the table of one of these dealers that is saying "nobody is buying anime stuff" I would see a sea of seriously overpriced stuff, exactly the same stuff the other sellers have. 2,400 Yen Artbooks priced at $50-75. Current American manga at cover price. Figures, like Revoltech or Figma, again 2,500 Yen items at $50 and up.
There are some of those, but Animaxis was my favorite (online, admittedly) vendor ever, they were based in Japan and sold directly to Americans. Gone! Planet Anime, had two stores in Texas, sold Japanese LDs and other goods at near retail cost. Gone! A half dozen other dealers I don't have names for but carried interesting and sometimes obscure items. Gone! A personal favorite dealer who's still around who lamented today's buyers sold me the Gatchaman toys I posted as well as carries numerous awesome things. He's selling the llamas I mentioned to get by.

Yeah, there are bad dealers, there are bad fans, there are bad guests, there are bad staff. But you know what the problem is, most of THEM are NOT going away. They're not losing money being "true believers", they're riding the NEW fad and laughing all the way to the bank.
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usamimi
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Re: make anime conventions better

Post by usamimi »

Project A-kon still describes itself as an "anime-based convention", but they're obviously more of an all-inclusive geek con now, really. I think that part of it might stem from the fact that most people nowadays don't even realize their name is a pun on an anime title anymore. (Which is kind of sad, when you think about it.)

I think that one of the main issues with anime cons not being how us older fans might want them to be like now is because of the generation gap between us and the newer, younger fans. They don't think the same way we do, they're not interested in the same things we are, and many of them don't even have a basic understanding on how the anime/manga industries work. Because of this, a lot of today's cons are staffed with these very same people, and their ideas of who to invite as guests and what kind of panels/events to have are very different from what we might chose. What we find interesting and informative ideas for panels would probably bore a lot of today's con-goers to tears, sadly.

I'm not saying that cons should stop trying, though. I try to go to as many industry panels as I can because I find them fun and interesting. There are still plenty of cons that premier anime or have exclusive breaking news on releases and such. The "grazers" that make up so many of the con memberships nowadays seem more interested in the fun, fluffy parts of it all--they just want to consume the series and all aspects of it, they don't care who made it, who produced it, or where their money goes. (If they even buy it at all.) I wish more of these grazers WERE more interested in the industry aspects, though...then we might not have things like Bandai closing in America and prices for new box sets going through the roof. But it's not like we can FORCE these newer fans to care. Even if all of the conventions changed their programing to focus heavily on these aspects, it doesn't mean they'd come and watch them...they'd all probably just chose to sit against the walls of the hallways, playing video games or taking cosplay photos instead. XD;
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davemerrill
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Re: make anime conventions better

Post by davemerrill »

PAC had a host of issues that I believe negatively affected its membership; I think the big one was the venue, in that it was in a convention center in downtown Providence RI - a great venue for a convention three times its size, but for the size it was, too large and too expensive. Had PAC been in a more reasonable venue, it might have approached "sustainable".

My solution to a market crowded with for-profit shows is to remember that when you're promoting a convention, what you're really promoting is an experience, and that's something that can't be packaged or shrink-wrapped or put on a shelf. A fun con experience is something that you can't pick out of a catalog, you can't fly it in and give it a per-diem.

The for-profit shows I'm familiar with - the Fan Expos, the Creation Cons, etc; they all are pretty similar in that they have the same sort of events all copied from other shows, and they have tiered membership structures designed to funnel money out of congoers' wallets. They're usually the first shows people go to when they attend conventions. I know that was true for me. What I've found is that when people come from a for-profit show to an actual fan-run convention, they're struck by two things: 1. how unprofessional things are, and 2. how much fun they're having. They finally "get it".

The challenge when facing these shows is to come up with new and interesting events that distinguish your con from the others. Otherwise your show will just be one more dot on the calendar.

In Atlanta the market right now is AWA, Momocon, Seishuncon, a one-day Atlanta Anime Day (run by dealers), and whatever for-profit outfit decides to take a swing at the Atlanta market (Florida Supercon tried it, Kunicon tried it). AWA and Momo and Seishun all know each other, the conventions trade staff and admin, and they all get along. But there's a definite sense among the shows that each one needs its own identity and its own style. There isn't a lot of event poaching, and if there is some borrowing, the con doing the borrowing tries to put its own spin on things. The result is a convention town where the fans get three great shows to attend. Everybody wins.
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kndy
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Re: make anime conventions better

Post by kndy »

I know myself and I believe Megazone were previously active on the Anime Cons Mailing List and I'm still active as press for anime cons (and also film festivals) but also behind-the-scenes, help book Japanese music guests to anime cons in the US and other countries and also behind-the-scenes, help cons with publicity and marketing.

But of the conventions that we have covered and seeing how they have transformed over the years, I still have to believe that Otakon, Sakura Con and Anime Boston still manage to be well-run, especially those who were able to maintain their previous staff.

While I still maintain contact with friends still in charge of various anime cons, I have voiced my opinions of what I don't like about today's anime cons that I sound like a broken record but at the same time, I noticed (or more like reminded) that because I'm older, my tastes are not the same of the young generation who have continued to attend these conventions. I've done the... don't like what's happening, start your own convention, which I did in 2003 (and the convention continues to thrive now with a new owner). But I learned that unlike some people who have created their own conventions, I don't want to live in debt.

But this is what I have noticed about anime conventions today, I have fun at smaller cons that have not been tainted by larger cons. Where attendees have not attended a big con but are experiencing their first con for the first time. My friends keep telling me to visit the anime conventions in Hawaii because they are nothing like the mainland conventions and it's because they are isolated from how things are in the states.
usamimi wrote:Project A-kon still describes itself as an "anime-based convention", but they're obviously more of an all-inclusive geek con now, really. I think that part of it might stem from the fact that most people nowadays don't even realize their name is a pun on an anime title anymore. (Which is kind of sad, when you think about it.)
I always hear that when Mary left, A-Kon has never been the same without her.
davemerrill wrote:"Bills getting paid" is an important part of the equation. When we started AWA it was a given that we were NOT going to lose money, that we were going to be in the black, and that's how we played it; and as a result we could have paid for the first year in total on Friday afternoon, even if no walk-ins had shown up. It's a discipline that many conventions can't or won't follow, and it's been tough at times for AWA, but so far it's paid off. Bills have to be paid. Otherwise there isn't a next year and somebody's credit rating takes a beating.
It is a very important part of the equation. There is a big difference with the way things were especially with Japanese guests back then vs. now. Back then, guests could come to the convention and say they were traveling. Now, companies require the conventions to not only take care of hotel, flights, per/diem but also some require the convention to take on lawyer's fees for Visas, the Visas and marketing done in Japan.

I actually know how much some of these guests costs and some are incredibly high near the six figure range. Sometimes costs are shared by the company but ROI is important. Some cons feel they are no longer getting it with Japanese anime industry guests, so they invest heavily on the American voice dub talent.

But I have seen models fail when they try to charge for the concerts on top of the attendee registration.

Unfortunately, now conventions have to worry about disgruntled former staff suing them as well for wrongful termination. Some who have outgrown their area that they have no choice but to take an expensive location and locked into a contract for years that are hurting them financially. Also, conventions have to deal with more people who show up now for the social interaction that they come to the convention without paying for registration because their goal is to hang out friends in the lobby and not take part in the convention.

Things have changed so much with anime conventions. So, much more to worry about, so expensive and unfortunately, I have known people who have not yet recovered from spending on their conventions since the early 2000's and some who had to file bankruptcy or family members who took on their debt.
Last edited by kndy on Wed May 01, 2013 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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usamimi
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Re: make anime conventions better

Post by usamimi »

kndy wrote: I always hear that when Mary left, A-Kon has never been the same without her.
Since I've only been going for about 4 years now, I feel like I can't really compare properly, but there seems to be a consensus that would agree. I think A-kon's a great convention, regardless. I'm amazed that such a large con still has a pretty fair amount of that "small convention" feel to it sometimes.
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Heero
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Re: make anime conventions better

Post by Heero »

kndy wrote:
usamimi wrote:Project A-kon still describes itself as an "anime-based convention", but they're obviously more of an all-inclusive geek con now, really. I think that part of it might stem from the fact that most people nowadays don't even realize their name is a pun on an anime title anymore. (Which is kind of sad, when you think about it.)
I always hear that when Mary left, A-Kon has never been the same without her.
I have nothing against Meri, and A-Kon was my first con, but after Stellar Occasion went defunct that crew began the process of "merging" their interests and that's what STARTED the transition of A-Kon from "anime" con to "DragonCon of Texas variant". Also, AFAIK, Meri is still involved with A-Kon, maybe not quite as actively but still there. She just recently made a note inviting Con Orgs to a gathering at A-Kon this year.
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usamimi
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Re: make anime conventions better

Post by usamimi »

Yeah, she's still around, just not in the same position, iirc.
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