Sexism in early anime fandom

The roughly mid-90's and earlier (generally pre-Toonami, pre-anime boom) era of anime & manga fandom: early cons, clubs, tape trading, Nth Generation VHS fansubs, old magazines & fanzines, fandubs, ancient merchandise, rec.arts.anime, and more!
George W
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

Post by George W »

Well, it's not like clubs have people lined up to be President....

...most were willing to take a warm body with a pulse (fog a mirror principle).

Some clubs had passionate members, but you have to be thinking "With this 24/7 activity as well as my life in the actual, how long can I keep this up?"

My "table limits" where my attention is blown completely away is at 5 years. So by 2 years, I would be working to select my successor.

Because if you don't have someone lined up, there is nobody ready to take over for you.

That's a hint to those of us who have been lingering in a position for a while - who will cover for you when you leave?
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NorthernKaleCity
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

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NorthernKaleCity wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:11 pm I'm just thankful that I can take that experience and turn it into something incredibly positive with my character and her story.
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NorthernKaleCity
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

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usamimi wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:21 pm To be fair, this kind of behavior in women or femme-presenting people is generally due to bad experiences with fans of those things. Especially if they're younger. I ran into older male anime fans who would try to convince young teen gals to watch racey or cheesecake stuff with Very Bad Intentions on more than one occassion, and it can be kinda scary, especiallyif you're young & don't have many friends (which back then was extremely common). So while, yeah, they def could have been more polite about it, that behavior is generally just out of feeling the need to protect oneself.

Not to dismiss your feelings or experience, just wanted to let you know that there IS a reason that happens.
Yeah, they could have been more polite about it, for sure. That sucks that older men and women still groom like that.
George W
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

Post by George W »

I wish that crap would end, but it is what it is. There is always a supply of creeps around. Always.
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aurechan
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

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mbanu wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:39 am I am an anime middle-schooler, so probably my perspective won't be so helpful, but something I noticed during my era is that a lot of anime-related subcultures seemed to self-segregate by gender, often (it appeared) unintentionally.

Sometimes this would bleed over into anime clubs proper, where you would have some clubs that were all-male and some that were all-female but where the members of the clubs earnestly assumed that it was because nobody of the other gender had any interest rather than that there was something happening that made the space invisible or unwelcoming to those outside the group. I think maybe the shift from community clubs to college clubs might have made this a little worse, because it replicated the gender dynamics of the larger institutions. An almost all-male engineering school would have an almost all-male anime club, and when the almost all-male comp-sci majors in those clubs at those schools reached out to one another through their Usenet, maybe it would reinforce the impression that there was only one type of anime fan? It's sort of like asking where the male slash-fiction writers were, maybe.

I think anime had it a bit better here because of conventions, since they would draw out all the various groups and tempt them into the same spot, and that for a while the community clubs existed at the same time as the college clubs.
Thank you for sharing. Yes for sure, there is something to be said about geek culture and its relationship with sexism/misogyny! I was also part of a female community of manga readers during middleschool and we all kinda stopped around 14 years old, while the male fans at school stayed in their fandom. For me, it was because I felt like my interests were never gonna be valued on the higher scale: at conventions, festivals, magazines. I was never seeing my favorite authors or manga represented. So I left. And then came back years later as a researcher!
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aurechan
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

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usamimi wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:38 pm
aurechan wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:09 am Hi all! I am currently working on a project on sexism in early anime fandom, particularly in (but not limited to) online spaces, such as rec.arts.anime and rec.arts.anime.misc. I have already found a lot but I was wondering if anyone remembered any particular instance or event they would like to share? I am not only talking about overt sexism like harassment, but also exclusionary practices such as interrogating the legitimacy of anime female fans etc? We can also chat by email!

I hope this project can resonate with some of you!

kindly,
Aurechan
As a woman-type person, I've had my fair share of sexist encounters over the years. Sometimes it'd be things that people probably didn't even realize were sexist when they did them (like in the 90s when I was told I couldn't be the ONLY president of the anime club because they never had a FEMALE president, so they gave me a "co-president"--not a vice president--that would literally never show up to meetings, saddling me with all the work), but other times it'd be quite loud and bitter. One of my "favorite" instances in more recent years being a dude on Twitter calling me an "ANIME POUSER" because I couldn't recall if I'd seen a specific Fist of the North Star OVA, then went on to tell me that the reason the anime bubble collapsed in the US was because GIRLS like ME didn't buy enough shoujo (which....is hilarious, because that would have to mean that shoujo anime was the dominating genre, which we all know has never been the case in the US.) This is why my Teepublic shop has ~ANIME POUSER~ buttons/stickers/shirts/etc, incidentally. :lol:

Casual sexism has always been a problem. It's sadly been a problem for decades....yes, even in the 80s and 90s, and yes, even if you never saw it yourself.
Thanks a lot for sharing this! First, I am sorry to hear this. It's truly disheartening to realize the discomfort I felt for so long in the anime fandom has such deep roots... And yes, I think a lot of the time there is such a misunderstanding about WHAT sexism even means! On Usenet, there were often discussions about the number of female users and someone suggested to say something offensive and count how many women would answer to it... And someone else made a list of every female user and shared it... Of course, some male users were protesting these kinds of practices but it surely created an unwelcoming climate of sexism. And yes, blaming female fans for not being active enough, and therefore not contributing to the fandom!, was very common too.
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aurechan
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

Post by aurechan »

davemerrill wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:27 pm Fascinating topic! It's my experience, as an anime fan that was active in fandom before the internet really became a thing, that Japanese anime fandom always involved women fans, both as participants and as organizers.

The founder & chairperson of the first continuously operating anime convention in America, Project A-Kon, was a woman. The organizer of the largest anime fan club in America was a woman. The editor of the first national Japanese anime magazine was a woman.

Seeing examples of sexism in anime fandom, as mentioned upthread, is depressingly unsurprising, and at the same time almost confusingly nonsensical- even more nonsensical than sexism typically is - because at every stage of anime fandom, women have played prominent roles.
Yes, that's a very good point! But from what I found as of now, it feels like notoriety didn't protect these visible female figures but made them rather easier targets for gendered harassment. For example, what Trish Ledoux had to go through is really disgusting... I also don't feel like anime history often remembers these women (beyond early anime fans circle who were there at the time)... I read a book about the anime boom and none of these women were mentioned…
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aurechan
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

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usamimi wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:21 pm
NorthernKaleCity wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:11 pm It hasn't always been women who have gone through this sort of thing, men too have probably experienced this without us even knowing about it. But now that we're older, we can see how really ugly some (but not all) female anime fans were when we growing up. I guarantee you that other guys have gone through this, whether it be at an anime gathering watching anime, or even just among friends in general. It's not their position to rise up and say anything about it, that's not my intent, but it's happened to me.

If you were in a club, and you didn't like strong, passionate anime stories like Kimagure Orange Road, Candy Candy, Princess Knight or any anime that invokes deep, heartfelt feelings and emotions, you were automatically cut off from engaging in any conversation they had. Instead, they immediately asked you what anime you liked as if you were filling out a anime fan application right on the spot, and if it was anything close to sexy or scantily clad, you were automatically dismissed and called a creep.
To be fair, this kind of behavior in women or femme-presenting people is generally due to bad experiences with fans of those things. Especially if they're younger. I ran into older male anime fans who would try to convince young teen gals to watch racey or cheesecake stuff with Very Bad Intentions on more than one occassion, and it can be kinda scary, especiallyif you're young & don't have many friends (which back then was extremely common). So while, yeah, they def could have been more polite about it, that behavior is generally just out of feeling the need to protect oneself.

Not to dismiss your feelings or experience, just wanted to let you know that there IS a reason that happens.
Yeah, it can easily seem predatory... Also, women often have to rely on whisper-networks in predominantly male circles. If they hear something bad about someone, it is normal to want to protect oneself. And I don't think the exclusion that male fans might have suffered was systemic or could be compared to female fans. Not to invalidate anyone's experience, but it's the difference between being excluded and feeling excluded. ;)
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NorthernKaleCity
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

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What women anime fans have gone though should most definitely be brought to light, in hopes of better understanding the why, the how and the reasons why they felt the way they did growing up as fans. The predatory stance some took over their gatekeeping of certain aspects of the fandom must have been awful to have witnessed firsthand, to the point that it made you feel like you were on the outside looking in, when all you wanted to do, as a woman, was just partake in something that others enjoyed.

What it must have felt like, to show up at a group meeting and see this chemistry among the fans with certain anime titles, firing up your reason to belong. The fear one must have felt in trying to bring up their favorite show, only to have your biggest fears realized, your fandom shot down in laughter from a group whom you thought, enjoyed the same thing you do. Crazy, huh.

To go home that night with such a broken heart because you were laughed at for enjoying something the group as a whole, found uninteresting, bland and too common. So, you resort to asking around your close friends to see if maybe, just maybe they've come across what you've watched, so that you can engage in pleasantries of what the show was about. To your disappointment, they're rather casual about their experience, and it's not really what you were looking for.

You crave the love reciprocated back for that OVA, that anime, or that manga.

Even though you shared your love for a fandom at a group meeting who neither wanted you, nor understood you, that feeling lingers a thousand times over at a convention. But against your better judgement, you're frantically searching to see if you can meet someone who likes the same anime you do. To your surprise, you do! But their love too is rather lukewarm in their reception, but when they talk about THEIR favorite anime, watch as the flood gates burst open, SPEWING out hour after hour about how their favorite anime show is the GREATEST of all time.

But hey, you think, my anime's cool too, right?

Sure, sure, they answer. But then there was this one episode when...

As a woman, you're still left with this encouraging afterthought, that despite the anime fandom being completely comprised of boys and men in general, there was hope; room to enjoy what you want. You go out and buy your favorites on your own, with your own money, after having done your own research, to enjoy in the comfort of your own home.

As time moves on, you start to develop this itch, that maybe, just maybe, you can write something—or you can learn to draw. If the finances are available, hell, why not put out the word that you want to create an anime convention? You can go out to your local library and donate some of your older manga so that new generations are exposed to the same kind of goodness you were while you were growing up.

The fact that men overwhelm women throughout this entire fandom is perplexing, no doubt about it. But as much as we want to blame men for the exiled, ronin lifestyle women had to endure, relying on whisper networks like secret radio broadcasts signaling the next best thing, through all the grooming that older men must have imposed willingly on younger female fans, to the cutthroat attitudes of how, "This is how it's going to be and if you don't like it, go fuck yourself," or the disgusting, abhorrent behavior that some men creep around like this seedy underbelly underground from where they sloth about, you have to ask yourself, what can I do, as a female anime fan, to rise above and beyond all of this?

Their attitudes won't change, that's a given, so how can I change mine? What can I do, as an anime fan, to better help the situation, rather than add more gasoline to the fire? How can I bring better awareness to what happened to me in a manner that's both encouraging and understanding of both sides, rather than put the blame solely on one factor? How can I help to make it better?

Let's paradigm shift the overall atmosphere to something more intuitive. Maybe what you went through in the past was merely a catalyst to something far greater in your future, and to the fandom as a whole. Rather than dwell on the negatives, how can I better focus on the positives?

Why not create an anime convention panel where it's okay to invite men whom are interested in better understanding of the other side to help bring constructive empathy, rather than demoralize?

Provide experiences in a mature, thoughtful, loving manner and you'll see that they too, have probably experienced something similar. How odd that we could find similarities in feelings like that, even though he's a guy, and I'm a girl? How crazy, right?

So yeah, these situations are in dire need of discussion. How can we, as fans, reach across the aisle and fix this so that others don't commit the same atrocities that we did? We could definitely be better examples, for sure. Maybe the changes we're looking for, aren't even external at all.

Maybe those changes have to come from within. Validate everyone's experience, man or woman. We're all fans.

Just a thought.
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

Post by George W »

What seems to be missing here is a general understanding: fandom (whether it is Science Fiction, Fantasy, or Anime) is cliquy.

Is that even a word?

Anyway, when you are new, you are labeled a "Neo" or "Noob" or whatever delightful putdown someone has for someone finding their way. Why not "Trailblazer" or "Pathfinder"? Nope. Noob.

I'm not defending it - I'm recalling it.

Costumers / now Cosplay is a group unto itself. The SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism) and their members are very close-knit.

Maybe we need to find a way to safely break in to such groups, so we don't get labeled "noobs" or in my case, "oldoobs'?

This is not to say that women were not treated worse. It's clear from what has been written here, some were treated in a manner which I would term criminal, or at least, criminally stupid.

Why can't people just accept others for their love of the art? If I could answer that question, I'd be rich.
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