Classic, repetitiveness, and 90s OVA

The roughly mid-90's and earlier (generally pre-Toonami, pre-anime boom) era of anime & manga fandom: early cons, clubs, tape trading, Nth Generation VHS fansubs, old magazines & fanzines, fandubs, ancient merchandise, rec.arts.anime, and more!
Post Reply
Fireminer
Posts: 292
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:42 pm
Anime Fan Since: 2012

Classic, repetitiveness, and 90s OVA

Post by Fireminer »

One of my personal beliefs is that a work of art, whether is it a novel, painting, or a song, needs not only the quality (though it is still the most important thing) but also the repeating discussion and examination for it to be considered a classic. Sure, there are popular arts that lasted for centuries which people can still identify, but I think that classics different from them on whether could the audiences find the works resonating through group contemplation.

Anyway, I happened to know that OVA were an important things to American anime fans back in the late 80s - early 90s. There are titles which you were bound to encounter (Project A-Ko and... Devil Hunter Yohko?) after being in the circle for some times then. To many people, these rented OVA proved to be their gateway drug to anime.

But that brought me to my point: How were OVA, even them, seemingly to be quickly forgotten? There were certainly gems and rocks, but even the gems did not seemed to me that they had gained a status that demanded any anime fan 10-20 years after their release to watch them, unlike anime theatrical releases or TV series.

So, I have two theories here that really need your opinions:

- Back in the early 1990s, OVA were mostly consumed as tapes circulation through video renting stores, which meant that not a lot of people could watch the show at the same time, unlike if the shows were shown in theatres or the TV. This in turn lowered the number of fans who could join the discussions at anytime.

- It is the same thing as with direct-to-dvd movies, which have the stigmata of being lowered quality than theatrical releases and could barely generate any discussion among the fans, who were busied with consuming all the big hits now could be seen in their home and could not spend more time or money for the OVA.

(I really hope my second point is wrong, because it contradicts what I heard from a number of old-school fans: They all thought most of the Japanese OVA in the 80s and the 90s being licensed in the States were regarded highly on their quality. Some went as far as to say many OVA was heads-and-tails over most contemporary US cartoons at the time.)
User avatar
mbanu
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:26 am
Anime Fan Since: 2001

Re: Classic, repetitiveness, and 90s OVA

Post by mbanu »

Just a stream of thought, but in the U.S. at least, there does not seem to be really strong repeated inter-generational communication between anime fans. Part of it might be cultural; in many circumstances it is considered somewhat inappropriate for people who have too wide an age gap to casually hang out with one another. Without strong inter-generational communication, there is no way that a canon of classics can develop, even if the raw material is there. Instead people will just like a set of shows from when they first started looking for anime.

Anime clubs were a good way of fighting this, but once a gap in age between old members and new members develops of a certain size, it can be hard for the club to survive; there needs to be a good method of succession. But even then, you end up with "local classics" that are favored by a particular anime club or maybe a group of clubs united by a convention, rather than anything national or international.

One side-step to the generation gap problem is blind transmission; I think the main reason Cowboy Bebop is known as a classic is because a small group of older fans thrust it out into the broadcast abyss for years and years, introducing it to fans who would never know or meet the people who decided it was worth showing. However, for that to work, there needs to be a bit of a captive audience. There were only so many TV channels, so the odds weren't bad that someone awake and watching TV at the right time might see the anime you were trying to pass along.

Another form is through anime conventions. While people might be uneasy about a 30something inviting teenagers up to his hotel room to watch rare OVAs, there would be no problem hosting a panel on them. However, this kind of one-time contact isn't ideal for developing a canon of anime classics because a core aspect of classics is their re-watchability. Unless the new people then go on to re-watch the OVA again and again with their friends, there will be nothing to help it rise above the other shows.

It's sort of like the question, "How are new anime fans born?" Most people can tell you the answer for their generation, but how it happened for older generations or happens for younger generations is a mystery. (^_^;)
mbanu: What's between Old School and New School?
runesaint: Hmmm. "Middle School", perhaps?
Fireminer
Posts: 292
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:42 pm
Anime Fan Since: 2012

Re: Classic, repetitiveness, and 90s OVA

Post by Fireminer »

mbanu wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:09 am Just a stream of thought, but in the U.S. at least, there does not seem to be really strong repeated inter-generational communication between anime fans. Part of it might be cultural; in many circumstances it is considered somewhat inappropriate for people who have too wide an age gap to casually hang out with one another. Without strong inter-generational communication, there is no way that a canon of classics can develop, even if the raw material is there. Instead people will just like a set of shows from when they first started looking for anime.

Anime clubs were a good way of fighting this, but once a gap in age between old members and new members develops of a certain size, it can be hard for the club to survive; there needs to be a good method of succession. But even then, you end up with "local classics" that are favored by a particular anime club or maybe a group of clubs united by a convention, rather than anything national or international.

One side-step to the generation gap problem is blind transmission; I think the main reason Cowboy Bebop is known as a classic is because a small group of older fans thrust it out into the broadcast abyss for years and years, introducing it to fans who would never know or meet the people who decided it was worth showing. However, for that to work, there needs to be a bit of a captive audience. There were only so many TV channels, so the odds weren't bad that someone awake and watching TV at the right time might see the anime you were trying to pass along.

Another form is through anime conventions. While people might be uneasy about a 30something inviting teenagers up to his hotel room to watch rare OVAs, there would be no problem hosting a panel on them. However, this kind of one-time contact isn't ideal for developing a canon of anime classics because a core aspect of classics is their re-watchability. Unless the new people then go on to re-watch the OVA again and again with their friends, there will be nothing to help it rise above the other shows.

It's sort of like the question, "How are new anime fans born?" Most people can tell you the answer for their generation, but how it happened for older generations or happens for younger generations is a mystery. (^_^;)
You make an interesting point, that inter-generation communication is important when it comes to making classics. What I want to ask, though, is the enthusiasm of older fans when it comes to recommend shows for the newer generations. Do you think in this case word-of-mouth is more important than advice found on forums and online articles, considering that most young fans would rather watch the older shows on an available online streaming services rather from VHS/DVD?
SteveH
Posts: 645
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:30 am
Anime Fan Since: 1979/82 (depending)
Location: Michigan and the Sea of Stars
Contact:

Re: Classic, repetitiveness, and 90s OVA

Post by SteveH »

This is a complex question that is asked again and again, changing phraseology but the core meaning absolutely the same.

It boils down to a person just being receptive of watching something that isn't the very latest 13 episode super-shiny digicel MOEblob fetish show.

We old farts suffer from clinical "let me show you this cool thing isn't it awesome?!" style evangelism. We can't help it. Because these shows were, ARE special to us.

(Endless Road...errr...Orbit SSX episode 4)

Consider the modern fan. He got his start in the '90s throwing all the DBZ he could find from bittorrent onto a HD. ALL of DBZ, to be watched speed style sans OP, ED, eyecatch, recap, preview...just MAINLINING the f**k out of the show. Then he was done. Question, did he actually WATCH the show or just...absorb... it?

How do you convince that guy (or gal) to watch something with some meat, some interesting storytelling even if the animation is seemingly crude and rough (OMG those beautiful thick raggy ink lines on Mazinger Z! The hand airbrushing!)? A fan who graduated from DBZ to Akira to grabbing "My sister is a zombie maid who loves me like a daddy" rips from online?

Answer: you can't. There is no broad 'net' that can be cast to scoop those people up.

What can be done is what we all already do. Just keep 'circulating the tapes' as they used to say. Talk amongest ourselves, use that demon social media. I've been on a 'StarZanS' bug for YEARS but just recent talking and referencing it and suddenly out of nowhere it's out in Japan, after not even EXISTING since the '80s. Did I do that? Oh hell no, not in any way did I somehow influence that happening but man, now, NOW other people are actually aware that it exists!

Dave does the same with Flying Phantom Ship. I am convinced that Discotek is gonna release that beast someday soon.

Just keep talking the stuff. Sean does holy work on twitter and Zimmerit.moe. Dave keeps the flags flying with Let's Anime. Daryl and AWO is still the powerhouse of anime podcasts (even if they don't make jokes about me anymore).

There will always be some people who reject the 'peer norm' of "this is what anime fans watch" and look for something odd or strange or to fulfill a taste not serviced by contemporary sources and they'll look around at an evil ripper site and stumble on, say, Zambot 3. Holy crap that's like a rough draft for much of the core of Gundam.

People still have 'punk' instincts, even in this hyper peer-pressure world of social media.
davemerrill
Posts: 1235
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:38 pm
Anime Fan Since: 1984
Location: the YYZ
Contact:

Re: Classic, repetitiveness, and 90s OVA

Post by davemerrill »

Fireminer, I don't think OVA were "quickly forgotten". Some of them were, of course, but others became, well, classics. Vampire Hunter D, Bubblegum Crisis, and Giant Robo, to name three, were OVAs that were popular with anime fans before they were licensed in the West, and after they became licensed in the West they each went through several pressings on various media (VHS, LD, DVD), and they continue to be in print.

With regards to your comment about "I really hope my second point is wrong, because it contradicts what I heard from a number of old-school fans: They all thought most of the Japanese OVA in the 80s and the 90s being licensed in the States were regarded highly on their quality. Some went as far as to say many OVA was heads-and-tails over most contemporary US cartoons at the time" - I'd have to say those old-school fans are correct. Most Japanese OVA were light years better than the animation produced in the United States at the time.
Fireminer
Posts: 292
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:42 pm
Anime Fan Since: 2012

Re: Classic, repetitiveness, and 90s OVA

Post by Fireminer »

davemerrill wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:13 pm Fireminer, I don't think OVA were "quickly forgotten". Some of them were, of course, but others became, well, classics. Vampire Hunter D, Bubblegum Crisis, and Giant Robo, to name three, were OVAs that were popular with anime fans before they were licensed in the West, and after they became licensed in the West they each went through several pressings on various media (VHS, LD, DVD), and they continue to be in print.

With regards to your comment about "I really hope my second point is wrong, because it contradicts what I heard from a number of old-school fans: They all thought most of the Japanese OVA in the 80s and the 90s being licensed in the States were regarded highly on their quality. Some went as far as to say many OVA was heads-and-tails over most contemporary US cartoons at the time" - I'd have to say those old-school fans are correct. Most Japanese OVA were light years better than the animation produced in the United States at the time.
Yeah, maybe I have spoken a bit too soon while forgetting I am someone from a nation where anime culture only started around ten years ago, long after the OVA boom.

And I am not trying to argue the "anime prints" subject without, but I've this question related to it: For your old school fans, when you already have a show on an older medium (like VHS), how likely would you buy that show reprinted on a newer medium?

I think that the circulation number of anime prints is an important parameter to measure the success of an anime, but when it comes to older shows, you have to take into consideration the number of buyers who were existing fans/collectors vs. buyers who did not know anything about the show prior.
SteveH wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:57 pm This is a complex question that is asked again and again, changing phraseology but the core meaning absolutely the same.

It boils down to a person just being receptive of watching something that isn't the very latest 13 episode super-shiny digicel MOEblob fetish show.

We old farts suffer from clinical "let me show you this cool thing isn't it awesome?!" style evangelism. We can't help it. Because these shows were, ARE special to us.

(Endless Road...errr...Orbit SSX episode 4)

Consider the modern fan. He got his start in the '90s throwing all the DBZ he could find from bittorrent onto a HD. ALL of DBZ, to be watched speed style sans OP, ED, eyecatch, recap, preview...just MAINLINING the f**k out of the show. Then he was done. Question, did he actually WATCH the show or just...absorb... it?

How do you convince that guy (or gal) to watch something with some meat, some interesting storytelling even if the animation is seemingly crude and rough (OMG those beautiful thick raggy ink lines on Mazinger Z! The hand airbrushing!)? A fan who graduated from DBZ to Akira to grabbing "My sister is a zombie maid who loves me like a daddy" rips from online?

Answer: you can't. There is no broad 'net' that can be cast to scoop those people up.

What can be done is what we all already do. Just keep 'circulating the tapes' as they used to say. Talk amongest ourselves, use that demon social media. I've been on a 'StarZanS' bug for YEARS but just recent talking and referencing it and suddenly out of nowhere it's out in Japan, after not even EXISTING since the '80s. Did I do that? Oh hell no, not in any way did I somehow influence that happening but man, now, NOW other people are actually aware that it exists!

Dave does the same with Flying Phantom Ship. I am convinced that Discotek is gonna release that beast someday soon.

Just keep talking the stuff. Sean does holy work on twitter and Zimmerit.moe. Dave keeps the flags flying with Let's Anime. Daryl and AWO is still the powerhouse of anime podcasts (even if they don't make jokes about me anymore).

There will always be some people who reject the 'peer norm' of "this is what anime fans watch" and look for something odd or strange or to fulfill a taste not serviced by contemporary sources and they'll look around at an evil ripper site and stumble on, say, Zambot 3. Holy crap that's like a rough draft for much of the core of Gundam.

People still have 'punk' instincts, even in this hyper peer-pressure world of social media.
Isn't the 'punk' instinct you mentioned is what draws many people to this forum in the first place?
User avatar
Drew_Sutton
Posts: 659
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 6:19 pm
Anime Fan Since: 1994
Location: Atlanta, GA US/Hackistan, Internet

Re: Classic, repetitiveness, and 90s OVA

Post by Drew_Sutton »

SteveH wrote:Consider the modern fan. He got his start in the '90s throwing all the DBZ he could find from bittorrent onto a HD. ALL of DBZ, to be watched speed style sans OP, ED, eyecatch, recap, preview...just MAINLINING the f**k out of the show. Then he was done. Question, did he actually WATCH the show or just...absorb... it?

How do you convince that guy (or gal) to watch something with some meat, some interesting storytelling even if the animation is seemingly crude and rough (OMG those beautiful thick raggy ink lines on Mazinger Z! The hand airbrushing!)? A fan who graduated from DBZ to Akira to grabbing "My sister is a zombie maid who loves me like a daddy" rips from online?

Answer: you can't. There is no broad 'net' that can be cast to scoop those people up.
While I agree with a lot of your premise, I don't think there are modern fans who are any less dedicated to anime as a medium than there are those of us who are more in-touch with the classic side. I can sperg out over Sunrise in the 80s/90s or riff on Kokusai Eigasha on any given afternoon but can't give two shits about Kyoto Animation. There are lots of modern fans, who got their exposure through Toonami rather than the UHF KidVid blocks, that have dug deep into KyoAni. And more power to them. One of the most attracting things to anime, especially when we're talking about becoming a fan in the 80s and 90s was its diversity in storytelling and subject matter, and that's still true today.

Sure - there are those people who "just absorb" it as you put it, but they have always been there. The folks who watched Battle of the Planets or Robotech or Star Blazers and just went "That's neat." There were plenty of those fans, too.
Fireminer wrote:For your old school fans, when you already have a show on an older medium (like VHS), how likely would you buy that show reprinted on a newer medium?
I think for everyone you ask, you'll get a different answer. For me, as a general rule, the answer is yes. There are some caveats, of course - I kept my Bubblegum Crisis DVDs when I bought my BluRays because the BRs didn't have Holiday in Bali special or I bought JP LaserDiscs of Gunbuster when I found out there was a music change or how I avoided Kenshin DVDs until one of my tapes was eaten beyond repair. If there's something I can get an updated version of though, when I buy it, I try to offload my older copy (especially DVDs).

I'm also really cost conscious about my hobbies, so I wait for holidays, sales and stuff like that to treat myself to updated media.

When it comes to older media - particularly my VHS tapes and my LDs - there is an inherent space cost associated with having additional players, on top of the space costs for the media itself. That hardware will break down eventually even though it can be prolonged by not using it every day. But when they go and I can't readily replace the players, I'm left with just ... a bunch of stuff. That's been my primary reason for digitizing my collection, even if I've found zero motivation or time to actually do it.
Akihabara Renditions: Japanese Animation of the Bubble Economy
Excuse me, I need to evict some juvenile delinquents from my yard.
gaijinpunch
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:03 pm
Anime Fan Since: 1980
Location: Tokyo

Re: Classic, repetitiveness, and 90s OVA

Post by gaijinpunch »

Late to this party, but OVAs were considered higher quality than TV until... probably the late 90s or so? Captain Tyler I I recall being one of the first TV shows that wowed people, animation quality-wise. But it was definitely not the norm. I got out of the hobby for the most part sometime around then, and I recall peeping back in and seeing TV as the defacto non-film standard.
davemerrill
Posts: 1235
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:38 pm
Anime Fan Since: 1984
Location: the YYZ
Contact:

Re: Classic, repetitiveness, and 90s OVA

Post by davemerrill »

Fireminer wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:52 am
Yeah, maybe I have spoken a bit too soon while forgetting I am someone from a nation where anime culture only started around ten years ago, long after the OVA boom.

And I am not trying to argue the "anime prints" subject without, but I've this question related to it: For your old school fans, when you already have a show on an older medium (like VHS), how likely would you buy that show reprinted on a newer medium?

I think that the circulation number of anime prints is an important parameter to measure the success of an anime, but when it comes to older shows, you have to take into consideration the number of buyers who were existing fans/collectors vs. buyers who did not know anything about the show prior.
Sales numbers of anime DVDs, and now streaming viewership numbers are definitely valuable information that we can use to figure out how popular an anime series is. People generally talk with their money, and when a manga series like "My Hero Academia" outsells most American comic books, that's valuable information for anyone in the comics business, if they care to pay attention to it. An anime show that stays on the air for years (Cowboy Bebop, Dragonball) or that sells DVDs again and again and again (how many releases of Akira have there been?) has an impact that cannot be ignored.

Back before Japanese animation was available on home video in the US, the only yardstick we had to judge "the popularity" of anime was strictly what we could see with our own eyes. You could see how many people showed up to screenings at conventions, you would see how much fan art and articles certain series would generate, how many costumers were portraying characters from a particular series. I was part of a group that made copies of anime VHS tapes, and obviously if people were requesting Project A-Ko or Akira a lot, that would be a pretty good indicator of popularity. I imagine convention vendors and comic shop managers would have a good idea of what items were selling, and they'd have a good idea about what was popular at any given time, and magazines like Animag and Protoculture Addicts would be able to read mail from readers.

The term I sometimes use for buying multiple versions of the same film or TV show as it appears on newer media is "double dipping." I haven't done a lot of that, because I'm cheap. However there are some anime films, like the Galaxy Express movie, for which I own a fan subtitle, a Japanese laserdisc, the New World Pictures VHS, the Viz VHS, and the Discotek DVD release. Most of the DVDs I own of anime films or TV shows that pre-date 1995 are titles I first saw on video tapes I copied from someone, or that were copied for me.

There is an argument fans make that says the fan home taping distribution of anime - and later the file-sharing distribution of anime - is what built the public interest in Japanese animation that led to the commercial anime industry in America. I don't think fan distribution of anime is the whole story, but it is a part of it.
gaijinpunch
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:03 pm
Anime Fan Since: 1980
Location: Tokyo

Re: Classic, repetitiveness, and 90s OVA

Post by gaijinpunch »

davemerrill wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:39 am There is an argument fans make that says the fan home taping distribution of anime - and later the file-sharing distribution of anime - is what built the public interest in Japanese animation that led to the commercial anime industry in America. I don't think fan distribution of anime is the whole story, but it is a part of it.
There was a ton of work to do back then if you wanted something. You had to network (and before most people had the internet), go to cons, lug around a VCR, record things in real time (what?!) etc. etc. You really did need to devote time to the hobby to properly be exposed to good stuff. And you had to watch a lot of crap to realize what you wanted.

Now just take a thumb drive to a friends house and get basically whatever you want. Pick and choose as you will. Reviews, in English, at your finger tips.

All that being said, I think it's fair to say that the few breakthrough shows (Gatchaman up to Dragonball or so) would not have been enough alone. We 80's/90's fans were pretty passionate about the hobby, and I like to think that seeped through to the mainstream.
Post Reply