Was Randall Stukey representative to anything?

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Fireminer
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Was Randall Stukey representative to anything?

Post by Fireminer »

I don't want to accuse anybody of anything, but was Randall Stukey's actions in leading to the downfall of C/FO something out of the blue, or did he actually represent any wide-spread sentiment at all? And there must had been some worried voices when all of this happened (like when the national C/FO headquarter was moved to San Antonio from California? How many anime fan were from Texas then?)?

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Re: Was Randall Stukey representative to anything?

Post by davemerrill »

The situation with the collapse of the national C/FO is that even though I don't know of anyone who agreed with his methods or his sentiment, literally no one else was willing to step up and do the work of keeping the national organization going.

Stukey took over the organization because nobody else wanted to run it, and he was able to restructure it because nobody else had an alternative plan. I don't think anyone was happy to see the national organization vanish, but that unhappiness didn't spur anyone to try to keep it going.

There were several attempts by others to start local-chapter type national organzations along the lines of the C/FO afterwards, and none of those succeeded. I think history has shown that such a national organization simply wasn't necessary.

If there's one thing I've learned from years in fandom, it's that the people willing to step up and do the work usually wind up running things. Stukey was willing to edit and publish a national C/FO newsletter. He and his friends in San Antonio were willing to answer the letters and keep the tape trading operation going. That put them head and shoulders above everybody else in the C/FO who might not have liked Stukey, who might have wanted to keep the club where it was in 1983, but were unwilling to actually sit down and come up with a plan for the club's future, unwilling to write letters and make phone calls and publish fanzines and newsletters. As they say, talk is cheap.

As the secretary of the national club when it went belly-up, I heard from a lot of people who felt the C/FO should continue as a national club, and they were going to get started on writing letters and getting organized any day now. Still waiting on that. Meanwhile, fandom keeps going, it doesn't need a national club or a national newsletter or any more organization than is absolutely necessary.

And hey, this is anime fandom. A lot of people, myself included, only have so much free time they can spend on their hobbies or their clubs or their conventions. A lot of the C/FO membership might have been really active in, say, 1984, but by 1986 those same people might have moved, gotten married, had kids, or be living in Japan and not as interested in keeping an American club going.

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Re: Was Randall Stukey representative to anything?

Post by Fireminer »

davemerrill wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:17 pm
The situation with the collapse of the national C/FO is that even though I don't know of anyone who agreed with his methods or his sentiment, literally no one else was willing to step up and do the work of keeping the national organization going.

Stukey took over the organization because nobody else wanted to run it, and he was able to restructure it because nobody else had an alternative plan. I don't think anyone was happy to see the national organization vanish, but that unhappiness didn't spur anyone to try to keep it going.

There were several attempts by others to start local-chapter type national organzations along the lines of the C/FO afterwards, and none of those succeeded. I think history has shown that such a national organization simply wasn't necessary.

If there's one thing I've learned from years in fandom, it's that the people willing to step up and do the work usually wind up running things. Stukey was willing to edit and publish a national C/FO newsletter. He and his friends in San Antonio were willing to answer the letters and keep the tape trading operation going. That put them head and shoulders above everybody else in the C/FO who might not have liked Stukey, who might have wanted to keep the club where it was in 1983, but were unwilling to actually sit down and come up with a plan for the club's future, unwilling to write letters and make phone calls and publish fanzines and newsletters. As they say, talk is cheap.

As the secretary of the national club when it went belly-up, I heard from a lot of people who felt the C/FO should continue as a national club, and they were going to get started on writing letters and getting organized any day now. Still waiting on that. Meanwhile, fandom keeps going, it doesn't need a national club or a national newsletter or any more organization than is absolutely necessary.

And hey, this is anime fandom. A lot of people, myself included, only have so much free time they can spend on their hobbies or their clubs or their conventions. A lot of the C/FO membership might have been really active in, say, 1984, but by 1986 those same people might have moved, gotten married, had kids, or be living in Japan and not as interested in keeping an American club going.
(Looking at his feud with Lorraine Savage) So Randall was the wrong man doing the wrong thing for the right reason and at the right time? Didn't sound like a very good premise. How did he become CF/O head anyway? Where was Ann E. Nichols in all of this?

(Also, can I ask you a sideline question about the Internet back then? How could AOL have a monthly subscription fee significantly lower than CompuServe?)

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Re: Was Randall Stukey representative to anything?

Post by davemerrill »

I think Ann Nichols had moved on from the C/FO by the time I got involved.

I can't speak to Stukey's motives, but I think he was more of a fan of Robert's Rules of Order than he was of any Japanese cartoon at all. He seemed to be way more interested in rules and guidelines than anything else. Leadership of the national organization devolved to Stukey after pretty much everybody else quit.

As far as AOL vs Compuserve goes, I don't know why one was cheaper than the other. I think AOL might have had a larger user base and their per-user cost might have been lower, but that's just a guess.

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Re: Was Randall Stukey representative to anything?

Post by Fireminer »

davemerrill wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:24 am
I think Ann Nichols had moved on from the C/FO by the time I got involved.

I can't speak to Stukey's motives, but I think he was more of a fan of Robert's Rules of Order than he was of any Japanese cartoon at all. He seemed to be way more interested in rules and guidelines than anything else. Leadership of the national organization devolved to Stukey after pretty much everybody else quit.

As far as AOL vs Compuserve goes, I don't know why one was cheaper than the other. I think AOL might have had a larger user base and their per-user cost might have been lower, but that's just a guess.
Thank you for the information!

Also, you have got people like Sue Shambaugh making money off sending people the translated scripts, right? Were there people who joined C/FO with the explicit goal of profit?

(And for a completely different question: Does Ryan Gavigan still host game shows in conventions?)

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Re: Was Randall Stukey representative to anything?

Post by davemerrill »

I don't think Sue Shambaugh was making any sort of profit out of translating anime movies. I can't remember what she was charging, but certainly it wasn't anywhere near what a professional translator would charge. When we subtitled the Queen Millennia film we used her script and I don't think she charged us anything. Later I paid to have a friend translate Flying Phantom Ship, and it was still way below market rates.

Anybody who ever got into the C/FO or anime fandom looking to make a lot of money was making a mistake. Even the vendors at anime conventions are barely making ends meet. There are always people who get into fandom thinking they can make a career out of selling art in the artists alley, or they can start their own manga localization business or get the rights to anime and release anime titles on DVD, or they can become a speaker at anime conventions and turn that into a public speaking career. These never work out. The money simply isn't there. There's a graveyard of failed companies like ADV or Geneon. Crunchyroll and Funimation got bought out by larger corporations. Viz is an arm of Shogakkukan. From the animators on down the field is simply not a profit-rich environment, except for Bandai.

And of course you always have your low-level grifters who crowd-fund projects that never happen, who claim to be voice actor agents (to the surprise of the actual voice actors), who start conventions and vanish with the profits, or who have tables full of bootleg merch or sketchy loot boxes, but they generally only get one shot at these scams before they have to move on.

Ryan Gavigan mostly does Anime Hell and Midnight Madness panels at Ohayocon in Columbus and Anime Central in Chicago (Midnight Madness at AWA). I don't think he's done a game show panel in a while.

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Re: Was Randall Stukey representative to anything?

Post by Fireminer »

Say, how many cons have Anime Hells appeared in? I count Anime Weekend Atlanta, Anime Central, Anime North, Anime Festival Orlando, and AnimeFest? Was they all the same, or just devariatives from the same concept?

Also, what about awards? Did C/FO or any fan clubs at the time give away any form of commermorations? I was reading about Steve Pearl and found out that he was given AnimEast's Tezuka award, and it was neither Shueisha’s Osamu Tezuka award for promising young mangaka, which Tezuka himself was the chief judge until his death in 1989; or Asahi Shimbun’s Osamu Tezuka award for single-volume manga.

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Re: Was Randall Stukey representative to anything?

Post by davemerrill »

Anime Hell is an event I started doing at DragonCon as the name for the midnight shift in the anime room. The first Anime Hell at AWA was in 1997, so I guess 1996 was the last DragonCon Anime Hell. Other conventions I've done Anime Hell at are Animazement, Anime Central, Sugoicon, Anime Next, Anime North, Youmacon, and Anime Boston. These days, I only do Anime Hell at AWA and Anime North.

Ryan Gavigan currently does Anime Hell at Anime Central and Ohayocon (with Jeff Tatarek). Mike Toole does Anime Hell at Anime Boston. There is a Fanime show that Gavigan handles. Phil Lee does Anime Hell at Animazement. Dan Baker did Anime Hell at Project A-Kon and Animefest in Dallas, and after he passed away other Dallas fans including "Dr. Mila" handle a similar show under the name "Otaku Hell". Anime Hell at Anime Festival Orlando was hosted by Anime World Order podcaster Daryl Surat, who might be better known in the convention world for his "Panel of Doom" panels. I think the last AFO Anime Hell was in 2013.

The "Anime Hell" shows that Gavigan, Toole, Lee, and others do are not the same as my shows, we sometimes share material but our presentations differ in many ways. Each show at each convention is made up of lots of short clips, so no two shows are alike.

I don't think the C/FO had any awards. I've heard of AnimeEast's "Tezuka Awards", and I think it was something they just came up with on their own without consulting anybody at Tezuka Productions at all.

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Re: Was Randall Stukey representative to anything?

Post by DKop »

davemerrill wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:57 am
Anime Hell is an event I started doing at DragonCon as the name for the midnight shift in the anime room. The first Anime Hell at AWA was in 1997, so I guess 1996 was the last DragonCon Anime Hell. Other conventions I've done Anime Hell at are Animazement, Anime Central, Sugoicon, Anime Next, Anime North, Youmacon, and Anime Boston. These days, I only do Anime Hell at AWA and Anime North.

Ryan Gavigan currently does Anime Hell at Anime Central and Ohayocon (with Jeff Tatarek). Mike Toole does Anime Hell at Anime Boston. There is a Fanime show that Gavigan handles. Phil Lee does Anime Hell at Animazement. Dan Baker did Anime Hell at Project A-Kon and Animefest in Dallas, and after he passed away other Dallas fans including "Dr. Mila" handle a similar show under the name "Otaku Hell". Anime Hell at Anime Festival Orlando was hosted by Anime World Order podcaster Daryl Surat, who might be better known in the convention world for his "Panel of Doom" panels. I think the last AFO Anime Hell was in 2013.
My first exposure to Anime Hell was by Phil Lee at Animazement back in I think 2013 or 2014 after going the the con a number of years and always missing it. I went about 3 or so years in a row, then ive missed out the past 3. My only involvement at this last show was helping Phil take down the Hell sign from the con on Saturday night after his Animeazement 1999 panel. I've done Dave at AWA once (last year I ducked out early after Neil Totally Lame Anime Panel), and I can back up that Dave and Phil do their stuff differently. Phil is more stuff that's none anime related except something here and there, and Dave is all anime related. I have no clue how the others do theirs since i've never been to those cons to see for myself.

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Re: Was Randall Stukey representative to anything?

Post by runesaint »

davemerrill wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:35 am
I don't think Sue Shambaugh was making any sort of profit out of translating anime movies. I can't remember what she was charging, but certainly it wasn't anywhere near what a professional translator would charge. When we subtitled the Queen Millennia film we used her script and I don't think she charged us anything. Later I paid to have a friend translate Flying Phantom Ship, and it was still way below market rates.
I would also like to second this. A number of people who 'back in the day' sold scripts or episode synopsis books or the like tended to charge slightly more than it cost to do the printing, the binding, and the mailing. Did they make some profit above that? Probably - but if you put in minimum wage to the hours that they put into making the booklets as well as shipping and handling they were definitely taking a loss.

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