Youtube video "We Have Accepted Mediocrity" snipet focusing on 80s anime

[davemerrill]

yeah, anime has really become too self-referential, I said, while watching Sazae-san and Kamui show up in Tezuka's Cleopatra (1970).

Seriously, though, this whole discussion of "bad anime" vs "good anime" falls apart really quickly because, hey, one person's bad anime is another person's classic masterpiece. One person's example of the best animation in the world can have terrific frame rates and be wonderfully animated, and also be a complete boring failure that makes watching paint dry look thrilling. Unless there's an agreed upon metric for 'good' or 'bad' then this conversation is essentially meaningless, and since taste is subjective, you're never going to get that agreed upon metric.

[Fvlminatvs]

Seriously, though, this whole discussion of "bad anime" vs "good anime" falls apart really quickly because, hey, one person's bad anime is another person's classic masterpiece. One person's example of the best animation in the world can have terrific frame rates and be wonderfully animated, and also be a complete boring failure that makes watching paint dry look thrilling. Unless there's an agreed upon metric for 'good' or 'bad' then this conversation is essentially meaningless, and since taste is subjective, you're never going to get that agreed upon metric.

Firstly, this is a very common argument made these days and it only serves as a conversation-stopper, it doesn't actually add to the conversation at all. Also, it demonstrates an overly-simplistic understanding of that which is subjective or objective.

Taste is personal, therefore subjective, yes. Failure or success in either the short-term or the long-term is an intersubjective problem, not a subjective one. One man's trash could be one other man's treasure, yes. What happens when one man's treasure is 1,000,000 people's trash? Despite being relative terms, "good" and "bad" can be used as shorthand for works that have intersubjective appeal or fail to garner success from its audience. Hence, "good" traits can be ones that are objectively identifiable as being likely to succeed with an intended audience.

For millennia, scholars and critics have written on what storytelling techniques, narrative tools, and methods of characterization are successful. If everything is subjective, these authors, from Aristotle and his Poetics to John Truby's The Anatomy of Story were colossal wastes of time, ink, and dead trees.

Secondly, as for there being an agreed-upon metric of "good" or "bad," this is a ludicrous demand that is often trotted out. While, if one reads E.M. Forster's Aspects of the Novel, Lajos Egri's The Art of Dramatic Writing, John Truby's The Anatomy of Story, and Aristotle's Poetics, there will be tremendous amounts of similarities in what they consider to be desirable in a "good" character, there will undoubtedly be small differences between all four writers. The entire purpose of writing these ideas down is to engage in a debate and to provide wisdom for future readers. Despite the differences, there is a great deal to be learned about writing from these authors that will make a writer's craftsmanship more successful.

Thirdly, the overall problem with anime currently is not "good vs. bad" but oversaturation. "Bad" anime is, as I said earlier, just as important as "good" anime.

[davemerrill]

I don't think there is a conversation here to begin with, at least not in terms of "Digibro" and his YouTube video... so it's difficult to stop a conversation that doesn't exist. If "Digibro" wants to complain about modern anime and its overreliance on cliche'd character templates, I invite him to visit the Japanese animation of the 1970s and 1980s, jam-packed with Fat Guy, Mean Guy, Hero, Girl, and Kid piloting their super robots. If he wants to complain about the paucity of innovation or the closed-loop system of manga-anime-game-novel-repeat, again, he can enjoy his Astro Boy board game while reading his Astro Boy manga while watching Astro Boy on the TV wearing his Astro Boy sandals, with any one of several different iterations of Astro Boy.

If you feel like doping out an objective, scientifically determined and stress-tested definition of "good" anime, well, have fun with that. I would rather watch cartoons.

[labsenpai]

I think this video is what happens when a young otaku brain tries to reconcile loving Urotsukidoji and K-ON

I'd say the meager existence of those trying to live as an artist/studio hand today has a silent effect on quality. It isn't easy to draw when your eating bread crust trying to save for a Wacom tablet.

[Onei-03]

I think this video is what happens when a young otaku brain tries to reconcile loving Urotsukidoji and K-ON

I'd say the meager existence of those trying to live as an artist/studio hand today has a silent effect on quality. It isn't easy to draw when your eating bread crust trying to save for a Wacom tablet.

Yeah, I think that's the case with most artist in the industry. I can't exactly relate to them empathy-wise on this but I know how difficult it is to draw and create stuff when you're anxious about not having enough money or worried something will happen to where you need loads of money that'll just wolf down your entire monthly budget.

[gaijinpunch]

To play devil's advocate: I am trying to find new, good stuff that entertains me, and I fail. This is after living in Japan for 15 years until a few years ago. So lack of exposure would be ironic. It's a given there that I was inundated with the garbage on TV (as I am here, with western TV) but also ran in some geeky circles (albeit, games). I know I'm not the only one that feels very little, if anything quintessential has been made in the last 15 years.

I have a few recs I'm going to try out soon, but not a lot. Another friend states that "95% of everything is crap (not just anime) and there's so much anime produced that 5% should keep us entertained". It's finding it that's the problem, in my case.

The one thing that is certain is that Japan's economy has no doubt afflicted everyone of it's major industries, so nobody (including me) should be surprised with a dramatic change in output. Also keep in mind, I hold 2000-2009 as some of the crappiest years of western film. I'm an equal opportunity hater.

[SteveH]

To play devil's advocate: I am trying to find new, good stuff that entertains me, and I fail. This is after living in Japan for 15 years until a few years ago. So lack of exposure would be ironic. It's a given there that I was inundated with the garbage on TV (as I am here, with western TV) but also ran in some geeky circles (albeit, games). I know I'm not the only one that feels very little, if anything quintessential has been made in the last 15 years.

I have a few recs I'm going to try out soon, but not a lot. Another friend states that "95% of everything is crap (not just anime) and there's so much anime produced that 5% should keep us entertained". It's finding it that's the problem, in my case.

The one thing that is certain is that Japan's economy has no doubt afflicted everyone of it's major industries, so nobody (including me) should be surprised with a dramatic change in output. Also keep in mind, I hold 2000-2009 as some of the crappiest years of western film. I'm an equal opportunity hater.

Super worthy and must be watched

Tiger Mask W
Lupin III pt. V
Yamato 2202

Guilty pleasures

Darling in the Franxx
Bakuon!
*maybe* the new Full Metal Panic

That's all I've cared about as far as recent anime is concerned.

[Fvlminatvs]

I think this video is what happens when a young otaku brain tries to reconcile loving Urotsukidoji and K-ON

I'm not much the connoisseur of hentai but I'd be willing to pay (a little bit) in order to see a well-done crossover.

I'd say the meager existence of those trying to live as an artist/studio hand today has a silent effect on quality. It isn't easy to draw when your eating bread crust trying to save for a Wacom tablet.

I would like to see data on what conditions were like in the 1960s through the 1980s. While we have some very revealing insider looks into the industry today, the tight-lipped nature of Japanese culture toward exposing negativity in a pre-internet age makes it difficult to get an accurate picture, I'd suspect. I've found very little on the subject of late 20th century studio conditions in Jonathan Clements' book Anime: A History, which is a shame because I think we really need to get a more comparative look.

One thing I strongly suspect today is how computer techniques and software like Adobe Illustrator (which I think they're using in Shirobako) has--instead of making anime production cheaper, faster, and more efficient--resulted in heavier schedules, more shows being commissioned and produced, and more difficult workloads in general upon staff. In otherwords, computers didn't make things easier but became an excuse to increase productivity demands. However, that's just something I suspect, I've no evidence for certain.

To play devil's advocate: I am trying to find new, good stuff that entertains me, and I fail. This is after living in Japan for 15 years until a few years ago. So lack of exposure would be ironic. It's a given there that I was inundated with the garbage on TV (as I am here, with western TV) but also ran in some geeky circles (albeit, games). I know I'm not the only one that feels very little, if anything quintessential has been made in the last 15 years.

I think part of the problem is our age--as we get older, our brains get less flexible, less impressionable, because we are less impressed by that which is "new" like when we were young. To us, that stuff was new.

I think another part is that it sometimes takes years to determine if something is really good enough to stand the test of time. Although it may still be too early to say, I'd venture to guess that Madoka Magica may be an example of a classic. We have the advantage of over twenty years of perspective on films like Ghost in the Shell and shows like Evangelion, at least, when we're not letting nostalgia cloud our vision, that is. Looking at some of the debates on Usenet Newsgroups from the mid-to-late 1990s, there was not enough evidence at the time that Evangelion would be such a cultural juggernaut, nor that it may have truly deserved that status and reputation.

I have a few recs I'm going to try out soon, but not a lot. Another friend states that "95% of everything is crap (not just anime) and there's so much anime produced that 5% should keep us entertained". It's finding it that's the problem, in my case.

That friend is riffing on Sturgeon's Law. Theodore Sturgeon was a mid-20th century science-fiction author who (according to folklore) replied to a comment that 90% of science-fiction was crap with, "90% of everything is crap, its in the remaining 10% where life is to be lived." I hear the actual quote differs a bit from the folklore version, though.

I am currently watching a number of anime, both past and present, for the first time this season. For example, I've just finished DNA^2 and DNA^2 and I'm starting Saint Seiya all on Crunchyroll. Thus far, I'm also enjoying Golden Kamuy and Megalo Box, both of which started airing this Spring. There are shows out there, you just have to really dig and they might not be the popular stuff most kids are watching.

The one thing that is certain is that Japan's economy has no doubt afflicted everyone of it's major industries, so nobody (including me) should be surprised with a dramatic change in output. Also keep in mind, I hold 2000-2009 as some of the crappiest years of western film. I'm an equal opportunity hater.

You may be interested in reading this five-part series of articles by W. David Marx (http://neojaponisme.com/2011/11/28/the- ... -part-one/) on the "Great Shift in Japanese Pop Culture." I must say, however, that Mr. Marx admitted in personal correspondence with me that he considers this series quite outdated and some of his conclusions erroneous in retrospect, but I still think it is a very interesting and insightful look into the economic and cultural situation that undoubtedly influenced anime shortly after the first decade of the 21st century had just ended.

[gaijinpunch]

Lupin III pt. V

This I will probably try, but old IP in a new setting rarely does much for me.

Yamato 2202

Same as above. 2199 took me a year to get through. Simply stated, I'd have rather rewatched the original.

[gaijinpunch]

Lupin III pt. V

This I will probably try, but old IP in a new setting rarely does much for me.

Yamato 2202

Same as above. 2199 took me a year to get through. Simply stated, I'd have rather rewatched the original.

You may be interested in reading this five-part series of articles by W. David Marx (http://neojaponisme.com/2011/11/28/the- ... -part-one/) on the

Will check it out -- thanks. Wonder if he'll update it if he considers it a bit dated?