Fansub morality/preservation/industry talk

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llj
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Fansub morality/preservation/industry talk

Post by llj »

Let's talk fansubs as a topic. Chances are, everyone here has watched a number of them. Even those who are against the idea of fansubbing.

What do you think of fansubbing in general? A help to the industry? A hindrance? Or is the effect minimal? What do you think of modern fansubbing as opposed to fansubbing in the past like in the 80s or 90s? What do you think of the increasingly good video quality of fansubs? There are many fansubs now that are encoded far better than a low-rent anime DVD, and fansub bitrates are increasing year by year. Is this cutting into possible sales of physical media as fansubs increasingly approach DVD or even BD quality?

Conversely, when a fansub group subs an obscure, less seen, or extremely old show, does this have any possible positive effects by attracting attention to them?

For the record, I've been watching some fansubs of older anime lately, especially stuff by Nanto of http://skarohuntingsociety.blogspot.ca. I really dig his work and I like the idea of trying to shed more attention on the historical roots of anime. Some of these anime will probably never be in English, despite the recent efforts of Discotek, Nozomi and Sentai. Some shows are just too obscure AND old. That said, as I see some of these fansubs increasingly sparkle in video quality, I can't help but grudgingly see the writing on the wall for physical media. And that's a bad thing for a lot of reasons IMO.
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yusaku
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Re: Fansub morality/preservation/industry talk

Post by yusaku »

I think the old fansubs should be archived somewhere. It was fansubs that introduced me to Revolutionary Girl Utena before the US release. There were some words that were different in the US release. I like the fansub translations better because they were not "politically correct" in the correct places. Some of the fansubs were truer to the authors' intentions. The work of the fansubbers who brought the anime to life should have their efforts preserved.

I would think there are a lot of anime that is still coming out that will make distributions in our country. Thus, we should continue the support fansubing anime. I have a lot of eclectic tastes, and art has a very personal value. I am a big fan of bjork and I have to go on amazon to get her latest album, Vulnicura. I think a lot to the fansubs have a lot of rare items that only appeal to some of us. For that reason I support fansubbing.

Now I have a special sweet spot for anime music videos. I have a small collection on hand and I like to collect these anime clips. I have to seek more of these. Just my two cents.
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llj
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Re: Fansub morality/preservation/industry talk

Post by llj »

I agree that fansubbing plays a big part in awareness of certain series. But it is still, on some level getting something for free, and I'll admit that while I'm no better than anyone else, I do feel a level of guilt about it. Especially as video quality gets better for them. I guess it wasn't so bad in the past when video quality was crappy or mediocre compared to DVD; as long as it was watchable but not good enough, you were compelled to seek out the DVDs after watching it. Nowadays though you could conceivably own an entire series on fansub and not even "need to" buy it when it gets an official release, especially if there are quality issues with the official release that hampers its quality compared to a good fansub. This is especially true for younger fans with newer anime. I think for fans of older anime, they'd be more inclined to buy the DVDs even if they own fansubs. In this way, I think the market for older anime on home video might actually guarantee that projected sales targets would be me more often than the market for new anime on home video which seems largely to be a crapshoot.
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Re: Fansub morality/preservation/industry talk

Post by davemerrill »

I'm conflicted. I fully understand copyright holders have rights and I acknowledge that fansubs are unauthorized violations of those rights. At the same time, I appreciate that there are many, many, many titles that I would otherwise be unable to enjoy if fansubs didn't exist.

I can't ignore the decades when I was an anime fan and unlicensed product was the only way to experience anime, and I can't pretend that my behavior wasn't molded by the attitudes of that era of fandom. I wouldn't trade those experiences for anything.

At the same time, it's 2015. The options for legally watching and owning Japanese animation are vast and varied, and I do think that we have a responsibility to promote licensed material whenever and wherever we can. That means linking to official sources in online reviews, that means clearances when possible in anime video rooms at conventions, that means working with licensees whenever possible, and that means respecting the copyright holders in our online spaces - not linking to scanlation sites, torrents of licenced material, etc, but instead directing others towards licensed product.

I do get regular comments to Let's Anime from people trying to link to their torrent sites or their illegal streaming sites, and those don't make it past the filter. When I write Let's Anime columns I hyperlink to licensed product whenever possible. Trying to lead by example.

You can still find bootleg dealers at the flea market selling bootleg DVD and even VHS tapes if you look. There are people wasting their time fansubbing and torrenting anime shows that are freely and legally available two clicks from anywhere. Piracy is never going to go away. But when legitimate product is easier to get, piracy will shrink.

I still will be watching Skaro fansubs, etc;, but I know that (for better or worse) other fans look to me for cues on how to behave, and I keep my discussions of fansub distribution, torrents, etc., private. It may be hypocritical of me, but it's a compromise I can live with.
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Re: Fansub morality/preservation/industry talk

Post by yusaku »

I understand the guilt of getting intellectual property for free. My friend stop paying crunchyroll subscription , which only was nine dollars at the time, because he found a was to download all his anime more FREE! I understand. My friend has been struggling for years with money problems. He is well educated and has a Doctorate degree. Yet, he can only find jobs paying less than the median U.S. income. He live paycheck to paycheck now. He deserves free anime.

If you cannot afford to pay, the anime is not for sale , or want to see if you want to buy the anime for later I think is permissible to watch free anime. Fansubs help keep people interested in anime. I remember when I lost my job in 2001 and again in 2005. I was dirt poor and I had to sell my collection. The second time in 2005 was an even bigger loss because I invested most of my money in anime and manga. I was very grateful for what I could get of the net because the money wasn't there to buy anime. It got so bad I was running a tab, a credit account, at the video rental store because I befriended the store clerks. I ran up my store credit in excess of almost $400 and they cut me off until I paid it off; and I did pay it off. I really have had to bend over backwards to stay in the anime fandom and many of my friends as well.

My friend in Kansas lot his entire collection due to a bad relationship. The guy had a room full of wall scrolls and shelves full of figurines, manga, and anime. He deserves free anime. If I knew where he was today. I would give him some of mine. Being too broke is like being a three pack a day smoker not being able to afford a pack of cigarettes. You will live, but life would just suck often.

As a longtime anime fan I like to collect the discs and packaging. So, I spent a lot of time buying actual merchandise whether it anime or manga. Usually I buy one or the other. I only watch free stuff so I can buy it later. Yet, if I did not have the cash. It will be time to beg and borrow again; and that is a good way to get in trouble. Thus, there should be free anime somewhere. Let the fansubbing continue!
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Re: Fansub morality/preservation/industry talk

Post by davemerrill »

We don't have a Crunchyroll subscription either, but we've managed to watch our way through several different Crunchyroll TV series, including Shirobako, which just ended. We just had to sit through some ads. It's not difficult at all, certainly easier than downloading.
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Re: Fansub morality/preservation/industry talk

Post by yusaku »

I did watch most of the anime I saw on crunchyroll for free; and, dealing with commercials is a small price to pay for free anime. However, I would not be satisfied by that alone. A lot of sites with the free downloads go out of business all the time. Usanime just posted about a free anime site on its way out of business. The prepper in me insists on having some offline anime available. That internet connection can go down or I could not be able to afford to keep my computer operational or internet connection. This has happened. I started anime on my cell through Sprint TV. That is when my credit was just good enough to get a pricey Sprint TV enabled phone ten years ago. My 2005 year was a BAD year for me. Yet, had I stayed on my job I would have gotten downsized two years later because they eliminated the shift I was on. Back to the point, I believe in having some anime DVD's just as a backup should hard times hit. Because free stuff usually requires some invest or infrastructure you must pay to maintain to get access. Thus, I am for fansubs being free because I would buy the stuff if I like it. Sorry about rambling so.
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Re: Fansub morality/preservation/industry talk

Post by _D_ »

So, then we have to worry about the morality of things like going to the library and borrowing a film, TV show or book as well? Only 1 copy was sold, instead of (potentially) hundreds. Or do we shut that source down too? I know plenty of people who just borrowed the manga rather than buy them. That must have cut into potential sales. Or, how about me just borrowing and watching my bud's video store collection of DVDs? Morally wrong rather than me buying a set for myself? Of course there is the argument that the people involved will just stop producing new material but I think that's a lot of bluster. I can't name anyone (other than maybe Cat Stevens or whatever he calls himself these days) who has actually followed through. Manga, anime, comics? Don't know of anyone who stopped.

As to preserving old fansubs...it's on the "to do" list. It's still all here, everything we ever did. Waiting, waiting, waiting...
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llj
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Re: Fansub morality/preservation/industry talk

Post by llj »

_D_ wrote:So, then we have to worry about the morality of things like going to the library and borrowing a film, TV show or book as well? Only 1 copy was sold, instead of (potentially) hundreds. Or do we shut that source down too? I know plenty of people who just borrowed the manga rather than buy them. That must have cut into potential sales. Or, how about me just borrowing and watching my bud's video store collection of DVDs? Morally wrong rather than me buying a set for myself? Of course there is the argument that the people involved will just stop producing new material but I think that's a lot of bluster. I can't name anyone (other than maybe Cat Stevens or whatever he calls himself these days) who has actually followed through. Manga, anime, comics? Don't know of anyone who stopped.

As to preserving old fansubs...it's on the "to do" list. It's still all here, everything we ever did. Waiting, waiting, waiting...
I think piracy hurts niche industries and independent creators more than it does big studios and corporations. If you're an indie comics artist or a part of a small animation studio, every sale counts. If I'm making a living drawing creator owned comics, you'd better believe I'd be against piracy, for example.

You have a point about the library. But you have to remember, you only borrow things from the library. Owning it means you can watch it whenever you want, you don't have to give it back to anyone, and, if you are pleased with the quality of a pirated product, you don't need to buy something if you want to own it.

The fact is, comics, anime and books don't just materialize out of thin air. People don't just do this out of the kindness of their own hearts. In order to produce, funding is required. If nobody ever bought anything, then there would be no money to fund anything. The anime industry isn't exactly in great shape either; the talent pool has been shrinking decade after decade as many artists opt to go to video games or other industries instead because they aren't getting paid enough.

I'm not against fansubs, of course. I think they do quite a bit of good as well. But it's a slippery slope that's gotten even more slippery as homegrown encoders and fansubbers get better at their craft.
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Re: Fansub morality/preservation/industry talk

Post by Drew_Sutton »

It's funny I find this topic; I was just having this discussion (argument) on another anime forum recently. My opinion of fansubs has changed over the years, just as the role of fansubs has changed in the fan community and industry over that same period. In brief, I think it is important to note the role fansubs played in early history of fandom - when the industry was microscopic compared to now (or especially the boom years), they played a larger role in getting people really into fandom. And not just from a cost perspective, either. The bulk of what was available was never licensed or distributed. In the early 2000s, fansubs provided the disruption to get more anime licensed; there was wider distribution, larger audiences and fansubs hastened licensing of properties (and even release if possible).

In 2015, there are a host of legitimate, online streaming services, that you can get your anime fix for free. And they license and broadcast practically everything and make it available shortly after original broadcast. When it comes to new anime, we are practically in a post-fansub world. This is great for fans and industry!

As others have also noted, there are still a few shows that won't see the light of day commercially and I think that is where the future of fansubbing is going to be. Not only preserving older shows that had much more limited releases but even going so far as restoring some of these anime, like th To-Y Restoration Project did with their fansub of it in 2007.
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