Do you feel that older anime is better

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Do you feel that older anime is better

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Originally written by Cyath on 2015/12/06, 04:15:09 PST :

Do you feel that older anime is better? :

In particular the 80 90's. I find that nothing quite beats that era. Although in recent times there have been some pretty good series Code Geass, Suisei no Gargantia, Gurren Lagaan

Asking this is one of the main reasons I joined the forum actually...I sometimes tend to have my nostalgia goggles on a bit too tight.

What are your thoughts on the issue?




Originally written by AVHodgson on 2015/12/06, 07:47:53 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

To some extent it's nostalgia goggles, and to some extent it's fact.

While there were bad series back then, just as there are now, there's an undeniable difference in anime before and after, say, 1995. It all depends on what you prefer.

Of course, it could be that 99 of anime after 1995 really is garbage...




Originally written by SteveH on 2015/12/06, 18:19:09 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

The problem, of course, is that there is no objective measure on what makes a particular anime series, movie or OVA 'good'. It's impossible.

Mind, this is true for ALL things. Opinion is like that.

There's been very very little I've been excited about in anime for years. Back in '92 I was suffering serious anime ennui when Giant Robo crashed onto the scene, quickly followed by Tekkaman Blade and many other shows, lighting my fire once again. Now, we get Yamato 2199 and not much else until out of the blue ha ha, there's a deep joke there comes Lupin III Part IV and my current shout to the sky fav, One Punch Man.

Man, One Punch Man. Amazing stuff, brilliant. It really blends the American Super Hero tropes with the Japanese sensibility perfectly. I know some really enjoy the manga but I just can't get my toe in that but the anime, perfection. Marvel and DC the production arms, not the comics altho they could learn too really should be taking notes on how to make a Super Hero project fun without being stupid, and serious without being all 'grimdark'. It's also very happily lacking in MOE. Unless one wishes to be MOE for one of the characters, that's on you, not the design of throwing jailbait in fetish clothing at you.

So now I'm just watching what I like to watch, not giving a crap about the rest, and feeling bad for those that fall into the MOE trap and try, try so hard, to justify it. but THIS show isn't like that! There's legitimate story reasons the cute girl wears thigh-high stockings, a corset and ends up showing her panties 10 times an episode!

Bah. Just punch something.




Originally written by Akage on 2015/12/08, 21:51:58 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

In terms of animation quality, in regards to several 1980s and 1990s series, I would say that animators that worked on cel based series were quite a bit more talented than their CG reliant modern counterparts. Because of the expense of re-animated sequences again during the cel days, I think studios put a lot more weight into having it done right the first time. With many shows being almost completely paperless now, the notion with current animators is that, if something is wrong or the envelope is pushed too far, such as in several episodes from Osomatsu-san , the sequence can be redone again. It's not uncommon for entire episodes to be redone for video release. This would have been almost unheard of back in the cel days.

I think the shift has focused from quality artwork to inventing the next gimmick and being able to draw that quickly. Making a lasting, quality product has been overshadowed by making something that'll make a lot of money in a couple months time. In terms of skill, I'm amazed at how well animators such as Sushio have done. Yes, he's very creative and very fast when it comes to drawing, but compared to some of his fellow Trigger artists, his artwork is very rough.




Originally written by davemerrill on 2015/12/09, 14:18:10 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

What's that saying, the golden age of comics is 12? I'll always have a soft spot for the Japanese animation of the 1970s because it was aimed pretty much right at me, even though I was on the other side of the world. The anime that did reach us, Space Battleship Yamato and Gatchaman and Getta Robo and others, instantly grabbed me and made me a fan. But do I think it's better than the anime being produced today? Hard to say, kind of an apples and oranges comparison. The audience of 2015 and the audience of 1978 are two very different audiences. The animation is being produced for different reasons and different markets, using different tools, by a different generation responding to a different cultural environment.

Chances are pretty good that a Japanese cartoon produced after 1995 isn't going to hold much interest for me. And why should it? It was made for a completely different target audience, with a different set of interests and aesthetics. That's not to say that many enjoyable films TV shows haven't been made since then. But certainly the odds of it being something I'd be interested in aren't as great.

I don't know exactly how much of my interest in Japanese animation is driven by nostalgia for the shows I watched as a kid or interest in the shows that remind me of the shows I watched as a kid. And that's not a question I really want answered, because the answer would probably disturb me. I'm content to enjoy what I enjoy and not analyze it to death.

I've spent my time in the everything was great back in the day camp and it's a pretty boring place, filled with grumpy old farts adjusting their nostalgia goggles, complaining about all the kids. I realize old age comes to us all, but I'm in no hurry to get there before my time, and part of keeping out of the grumpy club is giving new things a fair shot, or at least not condemning them sight unseen, or at least not going out of my way to complain.

Most Japanese TV cartoons are forgettable junk churned out to sell toys and candy it was true in 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000, and it continues to be true today. So better... it's a relative term.




Originally written by usamimi on 2015/12/09, 18:07:31 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

quote davemerrill What's that saying, the golden age of comics is 12? I'll always have a soft spot for the Japanese animation of the 1970s because it was aimed pretty much right at me, even though I was on the other side of the world. The anime that did reach us, Space Battleship Yamato and Gatchaman and Getta Robo and others, instantly grabbed me and made me a fan. But do I think it's better than the anime being produced today? Hard to say, kind of an apples and oranges comparison. The audience of 2015 and the audience of 1978 are two very different audiences. The animation is being produced for different reasons and different markets, using different tools, by a different generation responding to a different cultural environment.

Chances are pretty good that a Japanese cartoon produced after 1995 isn't going to hold much interest for me. And why should it? It was made for a completely different target audience, with a different set of interests and aesthetics. That's not to say that many enjoyable films TV shows haven't been made since then. But certainly the odds of it being something I'd be interested in aren't as great.

I don't know exactly how much of my interest in Japanese animation is driven by nostalgia for the shows I watched as a kid or interest in the shows that remind me of the shows I watched as a kid. And that's not a question I really want answered, because the answer would probably disturb me. I'm content to enjoy what I enjoy and not analyze it to death.

I've spent my time in the everything was great back in the day camp and it's a pretty boring place, filled with grumpy old farts adjusting their nostalgia goggles, complaining about all the kids. I realize old age comes to us all, but I'm in no hurry to get there before my time, and part of keeping out of the grumpy club is giving new things a fair shot, or at least not condemning them sight unseen, or at least not going out of my way to complain.

Most Japanese TV cartoons are forgettable junk churned out to sell toys and candy it was true in 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000, and it continues to be true today. So better... it's a relative term. quote

Pretty much echoing Dave's sentiment. While there are AMAZING older titles out there that are treasures for the ages, there's just as many crappy ones, too. There's great stuff being made today, too---it just feels like it's harder to find because, like Dave said, we're not the target audience anymore. What we find awful, others buy by he armload. It's all subjective.

Ironically, when I first started my podcast, I was still kinda sitting in the most new stuff sucks ass camp. But as I started paying more attention to what my friends were recommending me and what was coming out, I realized that I was just being silly. There's a handful of cool new things made every year. Might not be as consistent as we'd like, but there's always someone out there making something cool. It might not be as heavily promoted, or even popular, but it's waiting there to be found.

Not to say all cool old things are only cool because of our nostalgia googles. Sometimes they really are just that good.




Originally written by davemerrill on 2015/12/09, 19:44:59 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

There's definitely a selection bias at work when it comes to classic anime. We spent years only seeing the best of the crop make it across the Pacific - the Macross, the Gundam, the Yamato, Dirty Pair, 999, Urusei Yatsura, Vampire Hunter D, Akira, Harlock, Lupin III, Miyazaki films, et cetera. When that's all you're exposed to, it sure looks like Japanese animation is this amazing world-class art form. What we didn't get to see were the hundreds of poorly animated super robot shows, inane and or inexplicable comedies, well-meaning but badly executed manga adaptations, and just plain lousy cartoons that filled up air time and bankrupted studios and toy companies.

Used to be we'd only see these shows as images in magazines or books, but now with the proliferation of digital media we can catch most everything from Isamu The Cowboy to Fishing Sanpei on YouTube at the very least, and we can see the medium for what it is, full of highs and lows like everything else. Watching a few episodes of Groizer X will cure anyone of the impression that older anime is somehow better.




Originally written by usamimi on 2015/12/10, 07:42:47 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

quote davemerrill There's definitely a selection bias at work when it comes to classic anime. We spent years only seeing the best of the crop make it across the Pacific - the Macross, the Gundam, the Yamato, Dirty Pair, 999, Urusei Yatsura, Vampire Hunter D, Akira, Harlock, Lupin III, Miyazaki films, et cetera. When that's all you're exposed to, it sure looks like Japanese animation is this amazing world-class art form. What we didn't get to see were the hundreds of poorly animated super robot shows, inane and or inexplicable comedies, well-meaning but badly executed manga adaptations, and just plain lousy cartoons that filled up air time and bankrupted studios and toy companies.

Used to be we'd only see these shows as images in magazines or books, but now with the proliferation of digital media we can catch most everything from Isamu The Cowboy to Fishing Sanpei on YouTube at the very least, and we can see the medium for what it is, full of highs and lows like everything else. Watching a few episodes of Groizer X will cure anyone of the impression that older anime is somehow better. quote

Exactly. Even long-running shows we remember being super beautiful or well-animated had more than their fair share of having their janky episodes. I mean, there's a reason one of the original Gundam episodes is constantly left out of DVD blu-ray releases...




Originally written by llj on 2015/12/10, 12:36:02 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

A lot of it is really about which style and aesthetic you prefer. I do prefer the organic look of cel animation, but I don't have a huge problem with how anime looks now that it is mostly digital, with the exception of how overly clean the animation looks at times. I think when people say they prefer an era they don't just mean to say it had better stuff, but that they also liked the bad stuff better in that era as well.

I definitely am still not totally on board with CGI spaceships and robots even though it is the new reality moving forward. They are easier to animate and require less work, but I doubt I'll ever be able to look at them without grimacing at least a little bit, no matter how well done. They just stick out like a sore thumb. Even Unicorn Gundam's CGI--well done as it is--still makes me play the spot the CGI use game, which takes me out of the show when I do.




Originally written by Cyath on 2015/12/10, 22:47:15 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

Hi, thanks for all the replies! They were most instructive and illuminating. I have to say a big thank you to everyone because much of what was said was exactly what I needed to hear.

I'm in the midst of a big crossroads in my life and anime and a love of all old-school things is a large part of it. I guess I have to admit that older anime will always be a bit better to me simply because of when I watched it. But I agree that some old stuff is just better because it's well...better.

There was a period of time when I didn't watch anime at all for early 2000 onwards and only started again a few years ago. I almost completely skipped the moe era something for which I am eternally grateful for! It's like anything else, there are ebbs and flows. I used to hate CGI until it started getting better...I don't even play spot the CGI anymore.

I don't think it's completely accurate to say that all this was produced to sell toys and merchandise though a great many series are There is true artistic merit in the medium, as there is in all
art commercial or otherwise Also one fact that I think few analysts pick up on is that anime could afford to be more experimental and less commercial back in the 80s, because the Japanese economy was flush with money. OVAs wouldn't even have existed if not for the bubble economy. If there is one thing that I dislike about contemporary anime is it's relentlessly commercial nature, plugging everything from Pizza Hut Code Geass I'm looking at you to soda pop...but hey, that goes for everything these days.

Definitely agree that some of the nostalgia is because we weren't exposed to the crap of the 80s and 90s as much as we are exposed to everything nowadays.

Not a big fan of One Punch Man, I felt Eyeshield 21 was much better. I find the former to be a bit too gimmicky at times. But that's opinion once again.




Originally written by llj on 2015/12/11, 15:50:31 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

I'm reminded of what Hidenori Matsubara said about Wings of Honneamise

http://www.otakuusamagazine.com/Newslet ... -5296.aspx

quote OUSA What were your lasting impressions of working on that film? Do you feel like it defined a generation? Could a movie like that ever get made today?

Matsubara I can t think of a work that comes close to it. Looking back, it s just miraculous that it was even made, that it was even greenlit. It s unthinkable today, and it just feels amazing that Royal Space Force even exists, really. quote

Anime is lot more studio-driven today--there aren't as many things you can sneak under the suit's noses at the last minute, or go crazy while the bigwigs aren't looking.

There are still some maverick anime being made...but it's harder for them to get noticed now. The anime film industry took a big blow when Satoshi Kon passed away, and it is already arguably on life support as it is. He was one of the few animators who had the clout to make the anime he wanted, and not as beholden to marketing and demographics as others are. We're worlds away from the 80s where you could count on at least 2 or 3 films per year that weren't just cash-in movies for a popular shonen jump franchise. . For all the acclaim Hosoda and Ghibli get, their stuff are relatively safe, commercial fare with broad appeal by anime standards . Anime directors with personalized and individualistic visions like Mamoru Oshii seem to have a harder time getting anime films greenlit now.

You could say the same for the entertainment industry as a whole though. Hollywood now is studio-driven to the hilt. They have armies of suits who go over every big movie with a fine-toothed comb, to make sure every single scene and line guarantees maximum box office profit. In the 60s and 70s you could get a mass release film greenlit by impressing one or two powerful producers. Can anyone imagine a film like Five Easy Pieces opening in 6000 theatres today? Not me. I reckon today you'd be lucky to get it to anywhere in the neighbourhood of 700 theatres now, at its peak. Now you have to meet the approval of a frigging committee of bean counters. I don't think anime is much different now. You have to impress a lot more people now to get a project greenlit. In the 80s, if you could get ONE major producer to fight for you, you had a chance to get a project funded. That was the glory of the bubble economy for you.




Originally written by AVHodgson on 2015/12/11, 17:02:14 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

I'd like to say that the above post is unwanted nostalgia and what about all the cheap junk that was being released at the same time and was more popular, but the fact that things like this got wide releases and a chance to prove themselves to the masses says something.

Myself, I have a feeling that back then even the mass-produced junk was different from the mass-produced junk we get today, less mindless and pandering and such... but that's just me. Undoubtedly there's a lot of mindless, pandering junk from the past I can't even recall.




Originally written by llj on 2015/12/11, 17:21:12 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

quote AVHodgson I'd like to say that the above post is unwanted nostalgia and what about all the cheap junk that was being released at the same time and was more popular, but the fact that things like this got wide releases and a chance to prove themselves to the masses says something.

Myself, I have a feeling that back then even the mass-produced junk was different from the mass-produced junk we get today, less mindless and pandering and such... but that's just me. Undoubtedly there's a lot of mindless, pandering junk from the past I can't even recall. quote

It's not so much that people were better or more creative in any given era, it's just that the creation of art has always been tied to money, and what gets made depends on how the purse strings are handled. The way people measure the profit potential of any given work is so much more detailed and sophisticated now than it was in the past. And for good reason, because it has to proven to work.




Originally written by Akage on 2015/12/11, 23:24:23 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

I think there's a different emphasis, though, when it comes to what skills an animator who earned their stripes during the 1990s and those working today. I say this based on watching animators draw, both from older works and from those who are still young and working their way through the animation world.

When I watch older animators draw, I notice a greater emphasis in detail, particularly facial features and clothing. Certain animators, like the aforementioned Matsubara, spend a lot of time on just the eyes alone. These artists will sketch something out, but then they'll repeatedly come back to some characteristic, sometimes making several passes to highlight a particular aspect they feel as being important. Newer animators seem to be highly adept at speed drawing. I've watched Sushio come up with some insane, but very rough, looking sketches, spending only a couple of minutes on each sketch. Another big emphasis with newer artists, especially those that work on eroge and harem type series, is breast dynamics. Facial features between characters will be minimally different, but there will be a lot more emphasis on breast size and shape between girls. Some series, like Sekirei , come complete with settei sheets dedicated to breast sizes and how they bounce. And then, there are some artists that stare at you blankly if asked to draw on paper. I've met a couple of eroge artists who will claim that it's been years since they've drawn on paper. They're so used to having the ability to erase lines with the wave of a stylus that they have a lot of difficulty drawing on paper.

I think there are lot of good and crummy series in both the older stuff from the 1980s 1990s and the stuff that's coming out today. Obviously, everyone's definition of what makes a good series good varies. There are some series, such as the first season of Psycho Pass , that I've really enjoyed. And then there are other current series, such as Sword Art Online where I've wanted to hit my head on the wall because so much time is spent universe-building only to ignore all that so Asuna and Kirito can have more screentime. During the cel days, having attractively drawn, cute characters was important, and I think this is largely because the type of merchandise that was being released back then. Trading cards used to be sold for many series and now, with the exception of certain kid shows, they're not being made. I feel a lot more emphasis has been put into making characters look sexy, with many anime making quite the killing selling oppai mousepads and dakimakura.




Originally written by yusaku on 2015/12/14, 08:04:58 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

Cyath I am glad you asked this question! Which is better the skyscraper or the steel and concrete foundation it sits on? One cannot exits without the other The earlier anime fueled the anime explosion we now see today I remember watching Robotech episodes every morning before school and I rarely missed any episodes The earlier anime titles such as Vampire Hunter D, Otaku No Video, Wings of Honneamaise, 3x3 eyes, Uresei Yatsura, Angel Cop, Robotech, Galaxy Express 999, Maison Ikkoku and others were ground breaking in subject matter and imagination. These titles continue to be watched and rewatched today.

The 90's titles include Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke, Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, Haunted Junction, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Haibane Remnai, Neia Under Seven, etc. Post 2000 titles include Death Note, Gigamesh, and Bleach The newer titles that are really good are Sword Art Online and Titan.

I just came across Kids on the Slope and some other titles that have come out in the last year or two. I am going to pick them up this holiday season. The anime well is not dry yet.

As a side note I would like to mention that we have a larger, eccentric, unashamed, and younger anime fanbase that is GROWING. I went to NAKACON 2015 and the ages ran from 16 to 27 with mean age of 20 to 22. The convention was at a 10 story hotel with multiple buildings The place was packed with late teens and early twenty somethings. I was one of the few forty somethings in the crowd that was not a vendor or a parent. This anime thing is really growing!




Originally written by Cyath on 2015/12/18, 05:59:25 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

Anime is definitely a huge thing nowadays. I mean, so is everything really. Globalization is here to stay, in the new Net-driven world everything goes viral fast.

I really do miss the old intimate and nerdy fandom, where anime was more of a college and sci-fi fan thing. But I realize that things have to change and they generally change for the better.

I think the 80s will really be the Golden Age for a long time to come possible forever? because of how artistic it was possible to be then. Completely agree with the above posts, and also completely agree that it's not really just anime, but that the entire world has changed.

I was one of the people who wrote 20 pages essays about Evangelion, so I would say I also definitely miss the deep love and in-depth nature of the old fans.

I guess in writing these posts I realize that I may have to let some things go? Anime has been such a big part of me for so long that at this point where I am acknowledging that it might not be as large a part in the future, for various reasons I get more than a little sad and nostalgic.




Originally written by yusaku on 2015/12/18, 16:47:17 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

quote Cyath ? Anime has been such a big part of me for so long that at this point where I am acknowledging that it might not be as large a part in the future, for various reasons I get more than a little sad and nostalgic. quote

I am not as active in my anime pursuits as well. However, there is always good titles out there. My BFF, best friend forever, tells me about it all the time. I have not even finished watching the second season of Bleach yet. I am sure you know that Bleach is an excellent anime. Getting older you start running into things to do. I am trying to get ahead on some things. Yet, there are times when a good does Fruits Basket, Ghost in the Shell, or Colorful puts me in the right mood.

Look deeper into the anime you like. I am a cello player. Watching Revolutionary Girl Utena, I so enjoyed the song the Sunlit Garden I made a solo cello version from the piano score. Some people become artists using their fav anime as inspiration. Look deeper into your favorite anime s and find a way to use some portion of it for your use. Learn to sew and make an outfit to cosplay. Go beyond just enjoying the film and take things to a new level to increase the enjoyment. Now I must go replace the blower motor in the Buick, and I will be watching some anime when I get done. Look for my new anime recommendations thread later. Maybe I we can find you something you will watch three episodes at a time like when someone turned me onto Sword Art Online.




Originally written by Cyath on 2015/12/22, 04:40:46 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

Haha, most of what you've mentioned I have been doing for a long time, that's also why perhaps I might have suffered a kind of burnout. Cosplay, music, stage performances, fanfiction...I've done it all. It kind of feels...over? But then again, nothing is ever really over.

I think it's more that over the years and recently anime has not been such a main focus of things in my life, and so I feel wistful for those times that it was.




Originally written by SteveH on 2015/12/24, 12:19:46 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

Watch One Punch Man.

Don't 'power watch' by fast forwarding past titles and recaps and such, just watch a couple of episodes in full every day. You will feel young and filled with awe for anime again.




Originally written by yusaku on 2015/12/27, 06:47:53 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

I would like to say that the female characters in the old anime looked like women. Now a lot of the female characters look like twelve year old kids in adult makeup and clothes. I do not know what happened to the pinup girl look that just disappeared. Now the look is dressed up children most often. I do not get it.




Originally written by danth on 2016/01/13, 17:58:47 PST :

Re: Do you feel that older anime is better? :

I don't know about better, but I love old school anime, and I can't even watch new stuff.

- I prefer the 80's character design aesthetic
- I prefer the styles of Mikimoto, Yoshikazu, Sonoda, etc to today's designers.
- I prefer characters that look badass or strong compared to young and cute or overly stylized.
- I prefer the more realistic and functional outfits as opposed to outfits meant to appeal to cosplayers.
- I prefer the 80's mecha design aesthetic. I like the chunky real robot style over the more organic, skinny style seen after NGE.
- I like sci-fi. Today's anime seems like sci-fi light, or high-school settings with a little bit of sci-fi thrown in.
- like hand-drawn animation
- There's just something off with the new vector-based computer aided animation. They hand draw characters, then manipulate the lines vectors to animate faces or hair and it just doesn't look quite right.
- They also don't hand animate mecha anymore. If I want to see video game graphics, I'll play a video game.

- I like the more fluid and gratuitous animation of the 80's. It was a golden age for animation budgets. Some of the most incredible scenes had rotating backgrounds, which had to cost a fortune. You'll never see that today.
- I prefer more understated dialog and direction as opposed to cartoony characters that cackle maniacally or whatever. I got into anime because it wasn't cartoony.
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mbanu
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Re: Do you feel that older anime is better

Post by mbanu »

danth wrote: I like the more fluid and gratuitous animation of the 80's. It was a golden age for animation budgets. Some of the most incredible scenes had rotating backgrounds, which had to cost a fortune. You'll never see that today.
I have actually seen a few rotating backgrounds recently, as CG has made them more affordable to do. (Here is one from one of the newer Pokemon series, for instance: https://sakugabooru.com/data/1a46e38bfb ... 99688.webm ) On the other hand, CG backgrounds in general are starting to become more common, which may mean that traditional painted background art could become rarer.
mbanu: What's between Old School and New School?
runesaint: Hmmm. "Middle School", perhaps?
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