Has Japan or anime altogether lost its balls?

[Animusubi]

X-KID Z and I have these conversations near daily and so often, that to repeat them here seems kinda daunting and almost trite. Anime nowadays attracts a certain type of fan, and that's not most of the people on this forum. Not to sound sexist, but one of my friends said anime is for girls now. While many of the moe shows are aimed at creepy pandering male otaku in Japan, overall the shows are seemingly, at least to a western eye, cartoons aimed at a female audience on the surface (but, lol, we all know on the inside, they are all really awful fanservice-y garbage that girls like me roll our eyes at). I like sexy and cute things as much as anyone, but I almost feel like I can't call myself an anime fan anymore. How many more group of school girls who do absolutely nothing anime can Japan release before enough is enough. I mean, we can't just have Attack on Titan and Terraformars to speak for the more adult-side of anime. In fact, I almost feel like both shows try to hard to do just that. And it's part of the reason I like neither one.

And it's not just the themes of anime, it's the animation itself (at least for me), more and more studios are outsourcing, quality has dipped, and more reliance on computers just makes everything look bad.

I couldn't get into Space Dandy, I'm incredibly picky with shows that make fun of themselves. Or pay homage to older anime. I just want older anime again. I don't want a show to be like, "hey let's pay tribute to an older anime but not actually take risks to make anime like that again". Or it's just...too goofy for my liking. I really tried to watch it, but I just got bored with it.

The only way I see it happening is through Western animators, and the few who do Kickstarters. Lesean Thomas' Cannonbusters and the like. I don't think Japan is going to do it anymore.

[usamimi]

It's very true that the mainstream popular art aesthetic with anime in general has shifted towards the cutesty "moe" style, but there's still stuff out there being made that isn't--it just gets overshadowed a lot because since it's outside of that mainstream aesthetic bubble, it won't get showcased as much, there might not be as heavy of merchandising for them because they weren't made to be marketed like that, etc etc.

Space Dandy's a good example--Shinichiro Watanabe took a huge risk on making it, he literally has said he just wanted to do a weird, funny show that old and new industry people could work on and showcase their talent on. He even brought in Western animators like Thomas Romain (who I think is working on that Cannon Busters project! ) to animate sequences and do mech designs. It wasn't just 2 seasons of homages to older anime--they had some here and there, like I said, but they were subtle (I doubt many frat-boys who watch Toonami would know em when they saw em.) They had really amazing talent working on that show, and even the episodes I found boring were still directed well and animated pretty damn well for just a regular ol' TV show, thanks to directors like cult favorite Masaaki Yuasa & animation design by Katsuhiro Otomo (!!).

Getting back to the topic of this thread--I personally I think making a show like Space Dandy was SUPER ballsy, in a time when things like cute stuff about high school kids with magic powers is what sells, to go in the complete opposite direction. In fact, the show is kind of considered a flop in Japan, even with all the amazing talent working on it, because no one knew how to market it...so it hasn't sold nearly as well there as it did in Western countries so far, which kinda baffles me. If you can't sell a show helmed by Shinichiro Watanabe, with music by Yoko Kanno & a bunch of talented indie artists, with new animators at the top of their game AND old industry vets most fans would die to meet...then I feel sorry for the fans of Japan, lol.

A lot of people didn't like it becase they saw Shinichiro Watanabe & Yoko Kanno and thought it was gonna be another Cowboy Bebop & where disappointed when it was mostly just whacky space adventures...and I can totally understand that! The show was very experimental, so it seems like one of "you either like it or you don't" sort of things.

I know we all champion older anime (obviously!!), and there's definitely no shortage of pretty crappy stuff out there to complain about. BUT I still think there's interesting stuff being made...like I said, it's just not as prominently featured sometimes because it's hard to make merchandise fanboys buy in truckloads for shows like Space Dandy or Garo or Rage of Bahamut. We just gotta dig through all those crappy shows to get to the good stuff.

[danth]

X-KID Z and I have these conversations near daily and so often, that to repeat them here seems kinda daunting and almost trite. Anime nowadays attracts a certain type of fan, and that's not most of the people on this forum. Not to sound sexist, but one of my friends said anime is for girls now. While many of the moe shows are aimed at creepy pandering male otaku in Japan, overall the shows are seemingly, at least to a western eye, cartoons aimed at a female audience on the surface (but, lol, we all know on the inside, they are all really awful fanservice-y garbage that girls like me roll our eyes at). I like sexy and cute things as much as anyone, but I almost feel like I can't call myself an anime fan anymore. How many more group of school girls who do absolutely nothing anime can Japan release before enough is enough. I mean, we can't just have Attack on Titan and Terraformars to speak for the more adult-side of anime. In fact, I almost feel like both shows try to hard to do just that. And it's part of the reason I like neither one.

And it's not just the themes of anime, it's the animation itself (at least for me), more and more studios are outsourcing, quality has dipped, and more reliance on computers just makes everything look bad.

I couldn't get into Space Dandy, I'm incredibly picky with shows that make fun of themselves. Or pay homage to older anime. I just want older anime again. I don't want a show to be like, "hey let's pay tribute to an older anime but not actually take risks to make anime like that again". Or it's just...too goofy for my liking. I really tried to watch it, but I just got bored with it.

The only way I see it happening is through Western animators, and the few who do Kickstarters. Lesean Thomas' Cannonbusters and the like. I don't think Japan is going to do it anymore.

Damn, great post Ryoran! I totally agree.

[llj]

It's not like there aren't interesting shows that drop every now and again. I dug Steins;Gate a lot, although from an animation and design standpoint it's pretty underwhelming. You have more female anime directors now than ever before, and that's provided a different POV for a lot of the shows they work on. K-ON! for instance is basically a female driven "moe" show, and there's an obvious line drawn in the sand between that show and so many other shows that look "similar" to it. Sayo Yamamoto is doing interesting work in the footsteps of Shinichiro Watanabe, and I'd argue her more recent shows are of more interest to me than even Watanabe's (Kids on the Slope I found to be rather average, Space Dandy is not high on my list of priorities). I think if Michiko and Hatchin and The Woman Called Fujiko Mine came out in the mid 90s, it would hold up just as well today. There are experimental shows that seem to get NO buzz whatsoever, and so since we never hear them, we think nothing is happening. It pisses me off that some of these shows are so hard to get access to, since the fansubbers aren't interested in subbing them, and Funimation doesn't pick them up for streaming.

The problem is that it's very hard to get a show funded without a built in audience these days. It's similar to Hollywood now. Sponsors and shareholders have all the power since they're the ones who have money.

But I'm at a loss as to why seinen action has gone down in popularity. I always thought they were slam-dunk sellers? But it seems like that's an increasingly dated notion. Canaan, for instance, had some of the best action scenes I've ever seen, yet all I hear is complaints that it isn't perfect, the plot is a bit muddled...how is that different from every other shonen jump anime fans seem to go ga-ga for? Or how every ridiculous "high concept" otaku show is forgiven because "it's charming"? You can have your "charming" atmospheres, while I have my expertly choreographed action scenes. Like many people, I don't need everything to be a goddamn masterpiece--I have genre pleasures, I like seeing a variety of things that may not reinvent the wheel, but exist to give me a different taste on any given day. Problem is there's less flavours to choose from now.

[SteveH]

I'm not that big a booster of Space Dandy- the whole "Hey, look, we're making this intentionally for the International (nee American) Market!!" vibe is always off-putting- but for those looking for something new, dynamic, risky (or at least slightly risky compared to safe MOE-blob storytelling), I have to go along and say Space Dandy is the show to watch. There's some really nice storytelling going on, but it's uneven. It really doesn't hit its stride until maybe 6 episodes in (at least IMHO).

Dismissing it out of hand tells me that what we have here, under the (loudly shouted, even) mask of "I want something interesting! I want good stories!" and all that, is just a case of what I've been dealing with since the '90s. A case of the Akira Generation (or, when I'm feeling really snarky, the 'boobs and blood' gang) whining and bitching about their fruitless search for the NEXT AKIRA/NINJA SCROLL/GHOST IN THE SHELL crap.

The thing is, that demographic has no concrete idea what they REALLY want, and ofttimes when confronted with the truth they get super angry and defensive. Just like the potheads who live for Dragonball Z and hopelessly search for something JUST EXACTLY LIKE Dragonball Z, they are forever empty and unfulfilled.

See, I discovered something. There is an audience that sparks up to watch DBZ because the fight scenes are so vivid and kinetic they become really trippy while in the purple haze. The Akira Generation get the same 'rush' from watching people getting blown in hyper detail 'shot on ones' animation.

They're both stuck. Nothing can ever BE 'just like' whatever show. That's just not possible. So they holler and screed about how everyone ELSE is stupid and ignorant and blind.

Eh. I'm watching Gundam Build Fighters Try with complete unironic joy. Watching an honest to glob Old School Style Super Robot appear in the midst of all the 'real' Gundam robots, and the shocked silence of the stadium crowd, just made me laugh and laugh and applaud. What a BRILLIANT deconstruction of the built-up conceit of the model kit building world! THAT is careful, intelligent writing! Dare I say...Adult?

Been doing this stuff since the '80s. I'm still able to enjoy it.

[llj]

I'm a card carrying member of the "boobs and blood" gang. I love that shit, even to the point where I could convincingly argue that some "boobs and blood" shows reach a state of Chaotically Artistic Nirvana.

The problem isn't that there aren't shows with "good stories". I have to be honest with you--good stories are a dime a dozen. If you've read enough "classic" novels, watched enough "classic" film, read enough "classic graphic novels" as I have, you'll find that a good story isn't necessarily as big a "high" as you think, because there are so many. There are A LOT of well written anime about cute girls and their cute lives in a cute boarding house. I know, cuz I've seen my fair share of them and objectively, many anime today are actually solidly written and animated. They may lack flair or inspiration or ambition, but they are "well done" and nothing more.

And to me, that's sometimes even more boring that a terrible show that falls flat on its face yet shows sparks of ambition. Or a sleazy, tasteless show that at least is willing to stick with its guns and not care.

So the problem in my opinion isn't lack of quality, it's lack of variety. I'd rather have a typical anime season where five shows are flawed but in different genres (say, horror--sci-fi--action thriller--historical/historical fantasy-slice of life) than a season where five shows are about high school kids becoming friends with the help of a magical mascot or some kind of "high concept" plot device.

[usamimi]

It's not like there aren't interesting shows that drop every now and again. I dug Steins;Gate a lot, although from an animation and design standpoint it's pretty underwhelming. You have more female anime directors now than ever before, and that's provided a different POV for a lot of the shows they work on. K-ON! for instance is basically a female driven "moe" show, and there's an obvious line drawn in the sand between that show and so many other shows that look "similar" to it. Sayo Yamamoto is doing interesting work in the footsteps of Shinichiro Watanabe, and I'd argue her more recent shows are of more interest to me than even Watanabe's (Kids on the Slope I found to be rather average, Space Dandy is not high on my list of priorities). I think if Michiko and Hatchin and The Woman Called Fujiko Mine came out in the mid 90s, it would hold up just as well today. There are experimental shows that seem to get NO buzz whatsoever, and so since we never hear them, we think nothing is happening. It pisses me off that some of these shows are so hard to get access to, since the fansubbers aren't interested in subbing them, and Funimation doesn't pick them up for streaming.

The problem is that it's very hard to get a show funded without a built in audience these days. It's similar to Hollywood now. Sponsors and shareholders have all the power since they're the ones who have money.

But I'm at a loss as to why seinen action has gone down in popularity. I always thought they were slam-dunk sellers? But it seems like that's an increasingly dated notion. Canaan, for instance, had some of the best action scenes I've ever seen, yet all I hear is complaints that it isn't perfect, the plot is a bit muddled...how is that different from every other shonen jump anime fans seem to go ga-ga for? Or how every ridiculous "high concept" otaku show is forgiven because "it's charming"? You can have your "charming" atmospheres, while I have my expertly choreographed action scenes. Like many people, I don't need everything to be a goddamn masterpiece--I have genre pleasures, I like seeing a variety of things that may not reinvent the wheel, but exist to give me a different taste on any given day. Problem is there's less flavours to choose from now.

It's true--and it doesn't help that a lot more seinen lately skews towards the cute and fluffy end of the spectrum now. I mean, I know Maison Ikkoku is seinen for example and that's pretty fluffy, but I was surprised when watching Inari Kon Kon that that was a seinen title, for example! I could've sworn it was based off of shoujo when I saw it. (Not that that makes it BAD, I was just a little surprised that was originally made for a male audience--it was so cute and female-driven!) It just seems like the only place to find action shows lately are Shonen Jump fare, and who really wants to jump into a series that already has 600+ episodes?? I know I don't, I ain't got time for that anymore! It feels like us, in America and/or non Japanese-speaking countries, are having a hard time finding the stuff that we once flocked to in the 80s and 90s because we're not finding them in the places we used to. We were so used to things like Shonen Jump and Afternoon having the next big shonen/seinen hits, but the content of that whole demographic has changed to fit more modern fans, so I think we just assume there's nothing for us sometimes because it really can feel like that. (And like you said, it doesn't help that some American anime licensors are more prone to looking to what that newer, younger demographic wants....which is stupid if you ask me--adults have more money to burn, you'd think we'd be the ones they'd be trying to market to the most!)

I'm not that big a booster of Space Dandy- the whole "Hey, look, we're making this intentionally for the International (nee American) Market!!" vibe is always off-putting- but for those looking for something new, dynamic, risky (or at least slightly risky compared to safe MOE-blob storytelling), I have to go along and say Space Dandy is the show to watch. There's some really nice storytelling going on, but it's uneven. It really doesn't hit its stride until maybe 6 episodes in (at least IMHO).

Dismissing it out of hand tells me that what we have here, under the (loudly shouted, even) mask of "I want something interesting! I want good stories!" and all that, is just a case of what I've been dealing with since the '90s. A case of the Akira Generation (or, when I'm feeling really snarky, the 'boobs and blood' gang) whining and bitching about their fruitless search for the NEXT AKIRA/NINJA SCROLL/GHOST IN THE SHELL crap.

The thing is, that demographic has no concrete idea what they REALLY want, and ofttimes when confronted with the truth they get super angry and defensive. Just like the potheads who live for Dragonball Z and hopelessly search for something JUST EXACTLY LIKE Dragonball Z, they are forever empty and unfulfilled.

See, I discovered something. There is an audience that sparks up to watch DBZ because the fight scenes are so vivid and kinetic they become really trippy while in the purple haze. The Akira Generation get the same 'rush' from watching people getting blown in hyper detail 'shot on ones' animation.

They're both stuck. Nothing can ever BE 'just like' whatever show. That's just not possible. So they holler and screed about how everyone ELSE is stupid and ignorant and blind.

Eh. I'm watching Gundam Build Fighters Try with complete unironic joy. Watching an honest to glob Old School Style Super Robot appear in the midst of all the 'real' Gundam robots, and the shocked silence of the stadium crowd, just made me laugh and laugh and applaud. What a BRILLIANT deconstruction of the built-up conceit of the model kit building world! THAT is careful, intelligent writing! Dare I say...Adult?

Been doing this stuff since the '80s. I'm still able to enjoy it.

I toooootally agree with basically everything you said here, Steve, well put. Sometimes we can have our nostalgia goggles on too tight and miss cool things. I love my old shows, but nothing can ever compare to em. I've long stopped trying to find "THE NEXT AKIRA" or whatever, because it just ain't happenin'. I probably am guilty of bitching and moaning about shitty shows as much as the next person, but I find at least one or more new shows to try almost every season. I've actually been meaning to check out Gundam Build Fighters just because I see SO many people doing exactly what you said---watching it gleefully, unironically, and having fun.

[SteveH]

Thanks, all!

The point of my little blather isn't about being stuck in one's catalyst anime*, it's in actively refusing to evolve, learn, grow.

and really, there's nothing really WRONG with being stuck, unless you use that as an excuse for poor manners and intentionally contrary behavior. "I want something as good as Akira!" "OK, well, Lupin III Cagliostro Castle is a pretty fun action/adventure movie" "NO! That's BORING! It SUCKS!"

See, IIj and Usamimi, you're both way past thinking in those terms. You might not like something but you don't see it as a threat, as an offense. It's, dare I say, just a cartoon.

*Catalyst Anime: my shorthand for that one anime (could be American adaption) that takes you past passively watching and turning into a burning desire to KNOW MORE, learn more seek out more.

[greg]

A kid from Indonesia who follows my YouTube channel was excitedly telling me about some new anime which he described as "Yamato 2199, but with a submarine." I really cannot remember the name of the show, but Aoshima has a model kit of that submarine. So I checked out the opening animation of the show on YT. Oh guess what? The ocean has claimed the earth again and the cities are underwater. Gee, we haven't seen that before a hundred times. Oh and guess what, the crew are a bunch of silly young girls. Now wait for the opening credits to introduce the characters. Extreme close-up of the first girl's tits, then her ass, then it pans back. Repeat for the next girl: tits, ass, then pans back. Then the next girl. Oh wait, the one after that looks to be 9, so we don't get an extreme closeup of her girl parts. But here comes the next girl, and check out those knockers! That must mean that she's an endearing character, right? Character development? Bah! That'll just take a backseat to sales of Miss Busty's PVC figures in Akihabara. Oh look, now we see one girl crawling around on the bridge of the submarine like an absurd buffoon. Isn't that weird and creepy? That must be some real character development right there. Next it's a shot of the whole crew, and yup, I cannot remember seeing a single male in the crowd. The fate of the world is at stake, so we need these moeblobs to save the day! I can't even remember the name of the show. I just immediately filed it in the "this loathesome crap sucks" bin of my mind. Sorry, kid in Indonesia, but I'm slightly offended that you'd compare this to Yamato. I'll forgive you because of your age and level of hormones. Nice submarine, though.

Steve, I get what you're saying and while I do agree with you to a point about such fans, at least speaking for myself and many others, it's not that I'm wanting to see shows that are exactly like what drew me into anime originally. I am just sick of the seeing the shows that are exactly all the same type of pandering, unoriginal, uninspired crap. Once upon a time, it seemed that we had more to choose from. It seemed that there was a lot more originality, variety, and chances taken. Now it's just slim pickings these days. If anybody tells me I need to just "get with the times," then sorry, but I refuse.

[usamimi]

Once upon a time, it seemed that we had more to choose from. It seemed that there was a lot more originality, variety, and chances taken. Now it's just slim pickings these days. If anybody tells me I need to just "get with the times," then sorry, but I refuse.

Yup, like I said--it really is a lot harder to dig through the crap and figure out what's good and what's just the cutesy pandering bullshit. (It doesn't help, either, that there's way MORE anime being made now than there was...we get, what, 6-10 new shows a season?? And sometimes there isn't even 1 worth trying. I get anime studios want to make hits so they try to make things that fans will like but...sometimes everyone's making literally the same shows, bleh.)

I really hope David Production keeps on making more Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. That's been a highlight for me these past few seasons.