Babel Con '82 TV ad -

[davemerrill]

it is interesting how attendance at fandom cons seemed to get a kick in the pants in the 1990s; if you look at SDCC numbers they doubled their size between 1987 and 1989, and doubled again between 1989 and 1992; the con in 2000 was four times its 1990 size.

Worldcon numbers have stagnated, but it's a different sort of show entirely.

In the Atlanta market, Dragoncon started in 1988 and did good business; it also had a bump in membership in the 1989-90 time frame and when AFF went away it was the only game in town. Still is, really. Atlanta now supports Dragoncon (80,000), Anime Weekend Atlanta (28,000) and Momocon (28,000), and all these conventions sell out their room blocks and seem to be doing well enough to keep going. Seishun Con a few weeks ago did 1500 attendees, which is a good solid size, hopefully. The Atlanta Dr Who convention "Wholanta" does around 800 people, so that's a very 80s attendee figure.

This all has nothing to do with Babel Con.

[SteveH]

Thing is, I REALLY don't think we can quite explain just how ALIEN the con scene was back in the before times. Heck, just the sheer lack of...um...dammit. The lack of attractive single females made it a whole other world.

I know that's horribly sexist. It was reality. It was part of the 'outcast' culture we lived and man, if you were a good looking (or even average) female you had many, many other options for your free time than hanging around a group of bad smelling, often overweight or otherwise out of shape virgin fanboys frantically hoping for a love connection.

There WERE women in fandom, mostly in their own 'circle' doing fanzines. Many of them were 'socially challenged' as much as the guys but there were exceptions.

And love connections were made. Oy the drama when that was going on.

[davemerrill]

if I had to rate the different 80s fandoms according to the percentage of women present, it would look a little something like this:

comic books - total sausage fest
literary "hard" science fiction - mostly dudes
fantasy & soft SF - maybe 25% women
role playing games - 25%
Star Trek - 35-40%
Dr. Who/Blake's 7 - 40%
Japanese animation - 25%, steadily increased
various media fandoms involving fan fiction (Trek, B7, Professionals, Starsky & Hutch, etc) - 75% or higher (see "Enterprising Women")

that's how it seemed to me at the time, the comic book events were almost all male, while the closer you got to dragons and elves and Vulcans and Time Lords, the more ladies there were in the crowd. The anime club and the anime events we hosted would get some traction with the girls, but once the late 80s happened and everybody decided Japanese animation was all Legend Of The Overfiend tentacle rape, it got tougher to attract women among the general fandom crowds. Of course, Sailor Moon changed all that.

[DKop]

Steve, I take no offense to your "sexist" comment if your putting up hard factual numbers, at least facts that can be presented with photos and nerd culture at that time to credit that statement. It's pretty noticeable that once female targeted audience anime like Sailor Moon and pretty boys anime came over in the states, you would get more females, and there's evidence to back that up.

It doesn't really surprise me that cons/fandoms that involved creative atmospheres would attract women. I think there are more women that write fanfiction than men, and when I talk to other girls that are into a fandom, they do some sort of writing to add to what they like. I feel that Cosplay is a more female dominated fandom than men, because there's that creative element attached to it. It does make things easier for guys to meet women in the fandom they both enjoy, even if they have different views about it.

[davemerrill]

I don't think it's sexist to note that there weren't a lot of women in fandom in the 80s. That's the facts, ma'am. It *would* be sexist to say, for instance, that there weren't a lot of women because women couldn't handle the fantastical concepts, or that they needed to keep their pretty little heads in the kitchen making us cookies, that sort of tossing in a gender-negative judgment, that indeed would be sexist. But nobody's making that claim.

Again, gotta recommend "Enterprising Women". It is an absolute treasure trove of information about the fanzine - fan fiction - song-tape culture of the late 70s and early-mid 80s.

https://www.amazon.com/Enterprising-Wom ... sing+women

There was a copy of it in my university library that I checked out four or five times, and then a friend bought it for me for Xmas one year. If you want to know how slash-fic caused the star of Blake's Seven to pretty much smash that fandom into bits, it's the book for you!

[SteveH]

The sexist aspect I was apologizing for was the 'attractive, single' part.

Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and we sluff off the guys that have poor...oh screw it, the guys who are 400 pounds or wear the same clothes all weekend long without showering, or other less obvious (yet still glaring to the outside world) social faux pas. Guys who are 'outcast' because they aren't the 'smooth' ones. Gals attending cons tended to be of a similar type. One could easily pick the ones that should have the "insane cat lady in 10 years" shirt, dig?

But most guys want to at least have a shot at the 'cheerleader'. Pretty and into fannish things? Not attached to a guy (reluctantly dragged to the event by their boyfriend), or even (gasp!) married, or not gay? (not that there's anything wrong with that! Just takes them out of the pool, right?) Impossible! Rare as hen's teeth!

I know all about the female force of fandom. My main con for years (attending) was MediaWest*Con, an annual gathering of fanzine publishers, writers, artists (SO MUCH POINTILLIST ART!!) and editors. What few guys there were generally gay or otherwise...um...attached... to someone (I will never forget the leather boy walking behind his female owner, his chain nice and shiny. Every single year.), and yes there were guys dragged there by their wives/girlfriends. It was an interesting experience. It actually may have made me more open minded about the world around me compared to the traditional SF (print) convention.

The average anime con today is just mind blowing in the amount of gals attending. Sadly, way too many are like 14 years old and such. I do feel shame over admiring the scenery, so to speak.

I will never forget meeting the Forrester sisters and wishing I had been about 30 pounds lighter and 15 years younger.

[davemerrill]

I was gonna ask if you'd been to Media West, since that's in your neck of the woods, and it's a powerful force in the fan fiction world, or was, before they invented the internets.

I don't know that there was a lot to get women into fandom in the 80s. Star Trek, sure. Dr. Who, Elfquest, fantasy stuff. Blake's 7 was still a little while away from its big PBS broadcast. And if you were a woman, and you were interested in Dr. Who and wanted to participate in fandom with others, if you attended the local SF convention it might be a sea of guys. That's a weird feeling, to be the only member of the opposite sex, whether it's in the yaoi doujinshi floor at Mandarake surrounded by images of dreamy boys in various stages of undress, or in the dealer's room at a comic con surrounded by illustrations of busty super women in various stages of undress.

I do think there were/are some women who enjoyed getting a little extra attention by being the only girl in the fandom. There's the potential for a lot of attention from males, and if you want that kind of thing and haven't been getting a lot of that kind of thing, a fandom environment might be a place to get it. I won't say it's a 'good' place to get it, as a lot of nerds have poor impulse control and lousy social skills, and don't take hints at all. I'm sure we've all heard stories, or experienced these stories themselves, of people who decide that you are now their special someone, merely because you both like Douglas Adams or Fushigi Yugi or whatever.

Still, in the 80s you'd find very very few cheerleaders, or quarterbacks for that matter, at your local Doofuscon. Why would they be there? I mean, I would pay money to see the drama unfold as Cindy and Biff are trapped at the 1984 Star Trek convention, but the odds of that happening were very slim.

But these days in every fandom the gender balance is darn near even. Way more women at every level. Man, these days you might find cheerleaders and football players at the anime con playing video games for a while before going to dance to Japanese electronic music at the rave. It's a whole new world out there.

[SteveH]

Mmm, I throw words around as 'shorthand' and I just know that it confuses at times.

OK, a little bit of my fannish anthropology theory.

First up, life is High School. Always and Forever. All the social shenanigans from that time live on with a thin veneer of 'adulthood' to disguise it. It's STILL Jocks and Nerds and so on.

Second, the 'Smooth Ones', what others would refer to as the Beautiful People. Attractive, sleek, connected. The ones who have the stuff, who get the stuff, who don't seem to have to struggle. Usually of the 'Football Captain/Head Cheerleader' class. Since they are 'accepted' by conventional society they never ever feel outcast, or a need to seek out others of their kind and mind as they are more often sought by their peers. Of course there are all kinds of pressures within this grouping but it tends to be self-leveling. If a dude can't cut it at Football he might succeed at Baseball or Soccer or Track. He's still within the hallowed circle of 'Jock'. (I won't digress about internal rivalry viz. the Jock community but it's obvious it exists)

And that means, in the words of Bill Murry in Stripes, we all are mutants.

If you're a guy that's not so good looking (for one reason or another) you can still manage to fit in the Jock world and be with the Smooth People. It's not that easy if you're a gal. Looks and appearance matter more and it's still true in this day and age.

And let us not dismiss the most obvious thing. Sex matters. The desire for sex is a very powerful force, and that's mainly on the males. It's genetic programming. It's why there's such abominable behavior at cons. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Of course making general statements is risky, as there are ALWAYS exceptions. Smooth Ones can indeed be fans, but they will tend to keep it on the downlow. No Spock Ears hats or Dragonball Z bowling shirts for them!

The big change, the giant change I think, was the promotion of Cosplay. This was an acceptable way for an attractive girl to enter the smelly world of fandom. Show up, walk around, vanish back to a circle of friends. All the attention, low risk.

Ahhh I'm rambling now and lost all coherent thought. I'm all worked up about my colonoscopy. I'll revisit this later after everyone has read it, pulled it apart and yelled at me.

[DKop]

Steve, i'll never be the one to yell at you, I admire your honesty.

Look, its biological that both sexes are attracted to one another by physical appearance, it's the first thing you see and notice about them. There is that universal code of "look but don't touch" off the bat that everyone can agree on because its common sense. There's no shame in noticing the opposite (or same) sex despite their age or body shape if you find them attractive to your own perspective of whats attractive. There's a difference between noticing and gawking/stalking/creeping that is and will continue to happen at cons (as well as outside). Cons can make whatever rules they have for prevention measures so harassment doesn't happen, but its up to that individual and their actions that decide if they want to respect others or not. If people in general really cared about others, these kind of issues wouldn't happen so often. If you find someone attractive, find a positive way to approach them and get to know them before "trying to steal home base" with them (in adding to sports rhetoric talk ).

I get what your saying Steve, since were both like minded as guys from what your talking about. For me on the whole "life is High School" i'm kinda on the fence of agreeing and disagreeing with you there. You can be a totally different person outside high school once your out of there, which your chances of getting "that cheerleader" type is more likely. I don't believe in the whole "league" ranking that was common ediquitte in high school, because based on what career you have, financial stability seems to out weigh more than throwing a football farther than the other guy. But in terms of your statements you make fair points. Good posts from you as always.

[davemerrill]

high school is still high school, but the point I'm making is that the nerd stuff that got us made fun of in the 1980s is now mainstream entertainment. I don't know what cultural signifiers tag the 'out' crowd these days. Maybe Insane Clown Posse? Next time I'm around high school kids I'll ask. My friends' kids are either too young or too old at this point.