Has anime lost its cachet in America? by Roland Kelts

[Heero]

Sure, I get what Heero's saying, that people who come to anime cons may be fans of other things in addition to anime. Anime had a decade of being pushed as a pop culture phenomena, so it attracted people who may not be as super dedicated as we are. I don't particularly have a problem with that. I mean, these are mass media cartoons meant to entertain everybody, not the super elite such as ourselves.

I don't want to re-litigate this point. I like to believe my opinion is pretty clear at this point from the other thread and I also think it's well established that you disagree. I'm fine with that. And if instead you think I haven't articulated my point clearly enough, then I'm not interested in it as an academic exercise anymore.

Just to put the clearest depiction of my opinion that I can, it is actually this:
There are a SIZABLE ("majority" is arguable, so whatever) number of people that attend anime conventions that are NOT anime fans. I don't say this as an argument of "purity" or "dedication" or to hold myself as "fan-ner than thou", I say this because some of them WILL FLAT OUT STATE THAT FACT.
And that is why "increasing anime convention attendance" is not a valid metric for anime cachet or fan size, in my opinion. Anyone is free to disagree or state "my experience says otherwise" or whatever other variation.

(also, apologies if this comes across as aggressive or "angry", I'm somewhat frustrated with the situation and sick of "debating" the topic, so I just wanted to be clear in my take and provide emphasis where intended. Please don't take any possible lack of response as ignoring or dismissiveness or (hopefully) rudeness, none of that is my intent, I just don't feel like filling another 2-3 pages re-hashing the same argument for no purpose)

EDIT: (This is copied completely unedited (aside from the underline) from the AnimeSpark website, AnimeSpark is a con in Iowa)

What is an anime convention?
A gathering of geeks and nerds! Mostly geeks and nerds that have seen at least one anime show - maybe from Adult Swim or with a friend. We have rooms that show anime and guests of honor that have voiced anime and video game characters. There's plenty for people who only like one or two anime shows though, with dances, video games, and beyond (some come who don't like anime at all because we have that much fun).

http://www.animespark.org/

If you're wondering the obvious question "Why would people not into anime go to an anime con?" here's one reason (comment NOT related to AnimeSpark):

Wow, we have a lot in common. I see you're male and we both don't watch or like anime ha ha Glad you had fun though

Lol, totally. It was filled with attractive women in awesome costumes...difficult not to have fun

[davemerrill]

So; fine. You don't believe that attending an anime convention is an accurate representation of a person's feelings towards anime one way or another. I disagree, but OK.

My question is, then, what do you consider to be a useful measurement of anime fandom? Kelts seems to have one. I have one. Do you have one? You've spent a lot of time and energy dismissing my metric, but so far you have yet to offer an alternative.

[SteveH]

I do not understand this at all.

It's almost as if there's some kind of emotional investment in WANTING that stupid, poorly produced video to somehow be acknowledged as THE OFFICIAL OBJECTIVE PROOF, unshakable and utterly unarguable, of that particular viewpoint. And to not agree this is TRUTH beyond all truth is somehow wrong-headed, full-on blinders pig headedness. Or something.

My observation is there is a minor number of people who attend anime cons because word has gotten out to their freak telegraph it's a 'safe' place to exercise their deal. This is nothing new as I've seen such things since the '70s.

I think there's a greater number of people who attend because what they are is what anime fandom is TO THEM.

And then there's us.

[Heero]

My question is, then, what do you consider to be a useful measurement of anime fandom? Kelts seems to have one. I have one. Do you have one? You've spent a lot of time and energy dismissing my metric, but so far you have yet to offer an alternative.

I would agree that dollars is a good metric (at least of anime "cachet" as presented, since marketers base decisions on it), I simply do not agree that anime convention memberships should be included in the total. I saw a report that manga sales are up "this year", which doesn't offset that they've been DOWN for the last 5+. (same for anime) Especially considering that the OP article compares now to 2009, it seems appropriate to look at a wider time horizon than 12 months.

The result: a sharp decline in manga sales. In his 2012 White Paper, Griepp estimated the market at $105 million, half of what it was at its peak in about 2007, and he projected a further decline in 2012. The Borders closure resulted in an odd blip—an uptick in sales—because Borders liquidated its stock at discounted prices. Griepp believes this inflated 2011 sales relative to 2012, resulting in what appears to be an even sharper drop in 2012.

“My vibe is the total audience is smaller than five years ago,” says Griepp. “I base that on the reduced amount of television exposure and also the reduced number of retail outlets. There are now some alternatives where kids find manga online, that has replaced some of those two things, but it is really tough to replace high-rated shows on the Cartoon Network.”

http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-t ... arket.html

Anime companies may also see a better 2013 compared to 2012, but I'll note that several have either gone bankrupt or left the market or reduced to "barely still operating" in the last 5 years. Ask dealers who carry anime goods at the conventions, I'll bet most (if not all) made more money 5 years ago than they do today. Assuming they still exist at all, I know several have gone out of business.

[davemerrill]

I think industry profits are a fine metric. You can point to manga sales being less than they were in 2007, but does that reflect a lack of interest in manga, or a lack of places to sell manga and every other kind of print media? There have been some stunning disasters in the book industry since 2007. You can point to DVD sales being down, which, again, is a contracting industry across the board, not just anime. Been some stunning disasters there too.

In fact you can look at just about any business and compare it now to how it was doing in 2007, and chances are it was doing better in 2007. We had this recession thing, as I recall.

And yet, Viz and Kodansha are still selling manga. Attack On Titan is doing particularly well, as I recall. Viz is up to 17 volumes of "Vampire Knight", if you can believe it. Vertical has been releasing beautiful hardcover Yas Gundam manga, and they can't keep them in print. Anime DVDs are still being released in spite of everybody's doom and gloom predictions, and in terms of new media, Crunchyroll has more than 200,000 subscribers paying $7 a month for streaming anime, just got a major capital investment and a valuation of $100 million. What's the last American anime localizing business that failed? Geneon's been gone since 2007, ADV splintered in 2009 (and its pieces still chug along), CPM died in '07, Tokyopop imploded in '09. The bleeding seems to have stopped several years ago. Funimation and NIS and Nozomi/Right Stuf and others keep releasing DVDs and licensing titles and announcing those licenses to exhibit halls full of people who, for some reason, are at anime cons. Heck, CN brought back Toonami and filled it with anime titles. They'll be showing Space Dandy before it airs in Japan. Corporate entities don't license anime titles if they don't think there's any profit.

I agree that if you ask dealers at conventions if they're doing well, they will shake their head and tell you how poorly they're doing. This is what every dealer does at every convention ever. They are doing so poorly, in fact, that they keep coming back to conventions. They only stop complaining long enough to haul out their wallets and buy tables for next year. Maybe they just like to throw money away, I can't explain it. Strange how an anime con dealers room full of anime dealers selling anime stuff can somehow turn a profit selling anime stuff to convention attendees who, according to your theory, have no interest in anime.

It feels to me like the anime/manga industry in America has finally, with streaming video, found a way to get the cartoons in front of people without making them pay $25 for a sight-unseen DVD they may or may not like, and without having to wait for the next Dragonball, Pokemon or Naruto to turn into a big TV hit. Finally some advertising money is getting into the revenue stream. It's a new ball game that a lot of players are muscling their way into, and they wouldn't be muscling their way into it if there wasn't interest. Or 'cachet' as Kelts would put it.

[greg]

While Kelts's use of the con in New York as evidence that anime fandom has shrunk is rather weak, and while cosplayers may or may not be a useful barometer to judge how fandom is swinging, I do believe it is true that anime cons have become diluted a bit. Whether that is a good or bad thing I really cannot speak from experience, nor do I have a strong opinion either way.

I think even the San Diego Comic Con suffers a lot. Not from attendence numbers (obviously), but from a deluge of attendees and panels that don't even relate to comics or the other pertinentsubject matters. Once Schwarzenneger and the cast of LOTR started showing up, while that was cool and all, the focus of the con shifted to become more of a Hollywood trade show to promote the next blockbuster movies rather than comic books and whatnot. And the video game industry also has moved in. Due to its sheer size, there is no shortage of interesting panels to attend that directly relate to the world of comics, animation, SF, and fantasy. It's just that the con would be better without all of the tag-alongs to get in the way. They inflate the attendence numbers and just make the con not as fun as it used to be.

Meanwhile at anime cons, guests from Japan are flown in and promptly ignored in favor for English voice "talents" and for stuff like video games, My Little Pony, and Homespun (or whatever it's called) fans. I know it's all anecdotal, but I had a friend who attended a local Arizona anime con just becauses there were some panels on video games, like how to build your own Supergun (it's a homemade rigged-up way to play arcade games on your TV). He has a passive interest in anime, but really isn't knowledgeable aside from a few series.

I've never used Crunchyroll and I now live in a country in which I am unable to use the service. But if it is a way to save the industry, then I'm glad. I am very interested in what online companies like Anime Sols is doing. As I've said before, being a lover of the classics has never been better, I think. I thought that The Rose of Versailles would never get released domestically, but that came true this year. At this point, I would not be surprised if Legend of the Galactic Heroes somehow finally makes it for an official English release (as long as they don't demand an unreasonable price tag).

[usamimi]

I do agree with the fact that many (if not most) anime conventions have become diluted. I see much, much more non-anime things mixed in with them than I remember when I was younger. Maybe it's because over time, the aforementioned big cons like SDCC running panels and having guests that have absolutely NOTHING to do with comics; thus making other cons think it's acceptable to blur the lines of what can and will be acceptable con programing? I don't know.

I also agree that it SUCKS that Japanese guests seem to get second fiddle to English industry and voice actors lately. Not to hate on the Industry people here because they work hard and most of them are very talented; but it just BAFFLES me that the people who ACTUALLY MADE THE STUFF THEY LIKE from the holy motherland of their precious Japan get ignored because younger fans can't be bothered to remember a Japanese name that isn't one of their favorite characters or something. It doesn't help that the American companies really push to make their English voice actors on con attendees and plaster them all over social media to make it seem like they're WAY more important or famous than they really are most of the time...and then give little to no coverage to the Japanese guests. To me, this seems like a total backwards way of thinking. I really don't understand how companies like Funimation have managed to brainwash people into thinking English voice actors are the most important guests now, but somehow they have.

And I think that's why it's important that people like us still try to attend anime conventions when we can. Because if there's no one there who actually DOES care about the Japanese guests/industry, who will buy the anime/manga itself over just crappy merchandise, and who give a crap about anything that came out before the year 2000, we're going to be represented/catered to less and less because our "type" of fans are the minority. It's become apparent that we're a niche within a niche now, really---with companies like Discotek releasing the "retro" stuff, and TRSI doing the same thing here and there. And Anime Sols, whose really TRYING to get old stuff out there, but struggling since they seem to have a non-existent advertising budget.

This is one of the reasons I started promoting old-school re-releases and such on my blog--I've had plenty of friends who love old anime say they'd buy stuff, but they never hear about re-releases because they've stopped paying attention to sites like Anime News Network because they don't care about the newer stuff coming out, and you have to wade through lots of news about those titles and the people related to them, ect. I only have around 1000 followers, but I figure if they at least know some titles are coming out, they might purchase or tell friends and get the word out a little more, at least.

[SteveH]

Part of the problem with having Japanese guests is actually getting them. It's that whole contact thing. I'd love for AWA to get Izubuchi as a guest (because then I would use all my massive secret fandom pull to hang with him and talk Space Battleship Yamato crap. Yeaaaaah, like that could happen. ) but I can suggest all the day long and it don't mean a thing if I ain't got the swing- as in knowing who to call, what palms to grease.

Then there's money. Flight, Room, that stuff. The logistics train of making sure you have a good translator, several would be better, and a 'minder' to keep track of the person, and other minders to keep anyone else brought along (wife, friend, agent, whatever) content and entertained. We're not even discussing whatever conditions the guest might impose, possibly due to obligations imposed on THEM from someone higher up.

Triple that if you want an actual performer. I cannot imagine the headaches generated by getting Isao Sasaki for a con (altho I know someone who is ready to be minder/translator. Wendy, are you still on deck? ).

Compare that to someone like, say, me. I'm a flight and a room, throw me on a couple of panels and I do my dance and my 'Steve' act and boom, cheap-ass entertainment. Nobody has to mind me, nobody has to translate (well, sometimes... ), I don't demand trips to places or any of that.

So taking away from me (NO! it's all about ME! NO!) it's only natural for a con to focus on 'local' guests. Cheaper, easier.

[usamimi]

It's true they're cheaper, but the fact that newer fans as a whole seem to prefer the English guests still kind of confuses me a bit. I guess in their effort to make the cheaper guests seem like the "better choice" (not that they automatically AREN'T), it's created almost an entire new generation who have little to no interest in what few Japanese guests show up. Which in turn, makes Japanese guests even LESS appealing, which is kind of sad to me.

I wish I could afford to go to more cons like Otakon, AWA, ect that still do a decent job with bringing in the Japanese guests, but money/time is a factor of course.

[davemerrill]

Getting Japanese guests to a con is Advanced Level Convention stuff that involves lots of cash, people, time, space, you name it, it's more challenging. The Japanese talent we had at AWA this year seemed to be popular with the crowds, and I think they gave a good return on investment for the show, but again, it's not something every show can do, and it's not something every show NEEDS to do, frankly.

Funi hasn't been doing any brainwashing of conventions; for the most part the American voice talent themselves have been the ones doing the heavy lifting promoting themselves to conventions. The reason is simple; money. Doing voice work for imported Japanese cartoons isn't a full time job, and if they can pick up an appearance fee for hanging around in a hotel for a weekend and being treated like a big shot, it's all gravy. After the con is over they go home and get back to their day jobs. There are plenty of voice-actor fans who loudly agitate to see their favorites over and over again, and there are plenty of anime-convention guest relations people who respond to whoever agitates the loudest, and there are plenty of anime conventions that are so focused on the process of running the convention that they have lost track of WHY they're running an anime convention and why they should take the time to seek out the people actually creating anime and manga. You can be an excellent convention administrator and not be as knowledgeable about the field as you need to be. It's easy to fill three days with maid cafes, video game rooms, costume contests, and cosplay chess tournaments without ever getting near "anime" or "manga". And to be frank, most of these things are run by unpaid volunteers who take time out of their lives to arrange all this, so it's hard to get worked up into a furious fury about anime conventions that Don't Do It The Way I'd Do It. All I can do is try to be the change I want to see in the world.