The Old School Otaku Lounge

I think the phrase "a post-fansub world" is just about perfect. They're no longer the "driver" of fandom the way they were ten or twenty years ago. They're always going to be around, but the days of fansubs being a vital link to the medium are gone, gone, gone. And that's a good thing, on the whole.

llj wrote:

_D_ wrote:So, then we have to worry about the morality of things like going to the library and borrowing a film, TV show or book as well? Only 1 copy was sold, instead of (potentially) hundreds. Or do we shut that source down too? I know plenty of people who just borrowed the manga rather than buy them. That must have cut into potential sales. Or, how about me just borrowing and watching my bud's video store collection of DVDs? Morally wrong rather than me buying a set for myself? Of course there is the argument that the people involved will just stop producing new material but I think that's a lot of bluster. I can't name anyone (other than maybe Cat Stevens or whatever he calls himself these days) who has actually followed through. Manga, anime, comics? Don't know of anyone who stopped.

As to preserving old fansubs...it's on the "to do" list. It's still all here, everything we ever did. Waiting, waiting, waiting...

I think piracy hurts niche industries and independent creators more than it does big studios and corporations. If you're an indie comics artist or a part of a small animation studio, every sale counts. If I'm making a living drawing creator owned comics, you'd better believe I'd be against piracy, for example.

You have a point about the library. But you have to remember, you only borrow things from the library. Owning it means you can watch it whenever you want, you don't have to give it back to anyone, and, if you are pleased with the quality of a pirated product, you don't need to buy something if you want to own it.

The fact is, comics, anime and books don't just materialize out of thin air. People don't just do this out of the kindness of their own hearts. In order to produce, funding is required. If nobody ever bought anything, then there would be no money to fund anything. The anime industry isn't exactly in great shape either; the talent pool has been shrinking decade after decade as many artists opt to go to video games or other industries instead because they aren't getting paid enough.

I'm not against fansubs, of course. I think they do quite a bit of good as well. But it's a slippery slope that's gotten even more slippery as homegrown encoders and fansubbers get better at their craft.

I've heard people say they were going to walk away from an industry before. Personally, no one I know of has permanently. That includes artists, writers and musicians. When confronted years later, they get sheepish or defensive saying things like it was the time, they were having a bad day, they were in a failed relationship and had to get away, they never meant it, etc.

As far as indie comics, I'm sorting my bud's comic store inventory and there are so many indie books that really aren't worth the paper they are printed on. I guess someone bought them until the title folded but so few got past a couple issues it's staggering. I wouldn't even pirate those issues. I dunno what to think about that industry sometimes. Gotta be a labour of love to market something which has little hope of selling. Well, gotta give them credit for trying...

Ditto with TV. Someone is green lighting product which is absolute crap. If it becomes popular, they want their name on the production. If the public rejects it, then they say it wasn't them but a committee that did it! I still can't believe what passes for series on channels like SyFy these days. Most of their movies actually do make money, as bad as they are. 100 years of Scifi and this is what we get? Can't believe all the hoops I had to go through 20 years ago to get that channel. Now I hardly ever watch it...

The anime supply we enjoy as consumers (rich or poor) is only guaranteed if we're willing to acquire the data with no support from capricious distributors. Young fans today may only have to scrape together a dime for streaming or retail dvds, but that convenience may vanish like your local Blockbuster. I feel like the hard-boiled senior with his cautionary tale about letting things be managed by others. Admirably, back in the day just about every provider I knew worked for the cause...not an income stream/market trend. Personally, I want a back up network with similar zeal, for when the execs decide your wants aren't profitable enough. Decades ago, preservation meant securing our rarefied system for generating fansubs. Now it should mean securing video production without the expectation of commercial releases.

davemerrill wrote:I think the phrase "a post-fansub world" is just about perfect. They're no longer the "driver" of fandom the way they were ten or twenty years ago. They're always going to be around, but the days of fansubs being a vital link to the medium are gone, gone, gone. And that's a good thing, on the whole.

There is a huge glut of anime after 2000. I have not seen a fansub since 2000. However, because the new anime fans are very adept at stealing anime. We see that the major outlets have depleted or eliminated their anime stocks even though we see an explosion of anime fandom. The anime explosion funded by us older fans paying huge prices is shrinking. Now things are going the other way. We need to build a hard copy repository.

labsenpai wrote:The anime supply we enjoy as consumers (rich or poor) is only guaranteed if we're willing to acquire the data with no support from capricious distributors. Young fans today may only have to scrape together a dime for streaming or retail dvds, but that convenience may vanish like your local Blockbuster. I feel like the hard-boiled senior with his cautionary tale about letting things be managed by others. Admirably, back in the day just about every provider I knew worked for the cause...not an income stream/market trend. Personally, I want a back up network with similar zeal, for when the execs decide your wants aren't profitable enough. Decades ago, preservation meant securing our rarefied system for generating fansubs. Now it should mean securing video production without the expectation of commercial releases.

I remember the old days and they were kind of hard. When I lived in Mississippi with my grandmother I did not have any access to anime at all like I did when I was in Chicago. Four years without Specterman, HeMan, SheRa, or Robotech. Nada! One unilateral decision from an exec and anime will disappear from the shelves. Then you will not be able to find much anime even in major cities. Due to the a lot of intellectual theft going on; I really think that day is coming. What do guys and girls think?

The bigger problem seems to be distribution for profit sites that get hold of fan subs or DVDs that are subbed by the Japanese themselves and literally within hours of release turn up on the site. For every one taken down several more are spawned probably by the same companies. So what to do about those sites? They seem to have no fear of any authorities and litigation is falling on deaf ears. I don't really know what you can do other than not release anything, which is also not an option.

I thought I came back to reply to this thread but I must not have posted...

labsenpai wrote:The anime supply we enjoy as consumers (rich or poor) is only guaranteed if we're willing to acquire the data with no support from capricious distributors. Young fans today may only have to scrape together a dime for streaming or retail dvds, but that convenience may vanish like your local Blockbuster.

I'm not sure I get the analogy here - there has always been a capricious distributor in the chain, whether it was a single licencor, a non-profitable title, a fansub group that lost interest, a store that went under; up until the whole industry and market changed. To me, the only way to eliminate capricious distributors is to switch to an entirely DIY model.

Personally, I think we'll see a change not in what media we consume but rather minor changes to how we consume it and how that will greatly reflect how we collect it. A lot of my circle of friends and I were all really active with fansubbing to get access to new (in this case, new is something that hadn't been seen, not just recent broadcasts/releases), so I saw how collections shifted from physical media like tapes first to data CDs, then data DVDs and then to external hard drives and USB drives and measurement went from number of pieces of media or how much meatspace it took up to the raw measurement in gigabytes of data. With the advent of streaming, that has also dropped as people are logging on every few days or once a week and checking out a new episode of what they're watching or sticking around for a few hours to watch something new. Collections of media will go down, if they're not already (they are for me). The younger generation of fans, particularly fans who are cutting cable cords, will be used to consuming a media via stream a la Netflix and Hulu and purchasing pricey collector's editions for stuff they really love. And you know, ultimately, I think I am okay with that.

By shifting to a datastream model, yes, we are subject to the market whims of content producers and stream providers but there's more stuff available on CR and Daisuki today than I reasonably have time to watch everything of, including stuff that I know won't interest me. Honestly, there's probably more stuff that interest's me than I have time to watch. Each of those are exponentially compounded when I browse Netflix and Hulu. And yes, something you enjoy leaving the datastream sucks and especially when you can't find it elsewhere. The other things we'll lose that I like by having majority datastream models is pictures of other people's collections. I love those!

labsenpiai wrote:I feel like the hard-boiled senior with his cautionary tale about letting things be managed by others.

There are caveats to it, sure. While I am all about datastream models, like Netflix and Hulu, I am less a fan of non-subscription services: as in, pay for an episode/movie and you can stream it until it comes down from streaming. There is some weird mental wall I have against that and probably related to perception of value.

labsenpai wrote:Admirably, back in the day just about every provider I knew worked for the cause...not an income stream/market to trend.

Depends on what you mean by provider - a fansub provider? Sure, there was probably a lot less profit motive behind them subbing, releasing and copying tapes. But licencors? I am sure there was profit motive behind everything they were releasing, even if 20 years later we're wondering how anyone expected to draw any money from some of the stuff we saw released in the mid-90s.

labsenpai wrote:Personally, I want a back up network with similar zeal, for when the execs decide your wants aren't profitable enough. Decades ago, preservation meant securing our rarefied system for generating fansubs. Now it should mean securing video production without the expectation of commercial releases.

Now this, I really don't understand: I think you're agreeing with me that fansubs have a place for product with little commercial viability

Yes, when I talk about the media from decades past I'm really only considering the DIY fansubbers and raw title collectors. My college club took good care of itself, acquiring and/or mastering enough shows to host regular showings (and grow personal collections). The only capricious side was our conflicting opinions on "important" projects. I suppose this level of direct involvement was uncommon, and just reflects the tasking of otaku from that time.

I've not asked any fans in their 20's about how they would preserve access to anime, should the swelled streams of data dry up. How many would jump that infrastructure hurdle and do something like commit time to a hobby group/network? I may be nostalgic for the days of tapes and zines, but I'd hate to see the scant "membership" again. So, I'd like a secondary system, to not only archive increasingly rare productions, but possibly fill the void should current distribution degrade.

llj wrote:What do you think of modern fansubbing as opposed to fansubbing in the past like in the 80s or 90s?

The biggest split has been that "fan typesetting" (fansetting?) has been slowly replacing the traditional idea of fansubbing. Instead of fansubbers looking to create original translations of the obscure things that are now available through globalized streaming sites (like old Japanese animated commercials, music videos, and the student projects of now established animators), they are taking Crunchyroll scripts and using advanced typesetting techniques.

Fansetting is not a bad thing in theory -- you really can do a lot of wonderful stuff with modern subtitling software when you are not restricted by the hardware limitations of something like a DVD or Blu-ray, and without that sort of push-back there's no pressure on commercial companies to change their ways.

However, in practice that means joining forces with bootleggers, unless you wait until the show's streaming license expires (which may never happen for more popular shows). I think the worse part is that of those new fans who even are aware of fansubbing (many aren't), their idea of it seems to almost always be fansetting.

yusaku wrote:I think the old fansubs should be archived somewhere.

I agree with this, especially for marginalia -- fansub credits screens, VHS label art, etc. I also think it might be worth saving some of the weirder choices during the peak of fan typesetting, although with cheap digital storage it's a bit more likely that those digisubs will remain tucked away on someone's hard drive a bit longer. A lot of those old VHS fansubs especially are being tossed now that Blu-ray versions exist, without the history of those early groups or their output having been cataloged.

For some things, fansubbing is really an excuse for preserving the raw show -- there are some obscure shows on Japanese laserdisc that receive interest from foreign fans because it is anime, that Japanese fans have no interest in. Digitizing those laserdiscs while they are still in good shape is important for posterity.

Alas, I disagree! Free anime is not a right!

yusaku wrote:He deserves free anime.

The animators and creator teams deserve a wage to be paid though!

yusaku wrote:Thus, there should be free anime somewhere.

As mentioned... there's Crunchyroll... free, with adverts, now

yusaku wrote:Thus, I am for fansubs being free because I would buy the stuff if I like it.

But... the stuff you like would not get made in the first place if no income is generated from viewers not contributing to stuff that gets fansubbed/scanlated and torrented...

_D_ wrote:I know plenty of people who just borrowed the manga rather than buy them. That must have cut into potential sales

"Public libraries pay for the copies of books they purchase. Royalties are paid by the publishers of the books. They hold the publishing contracts with the authors, which may vary for each."
From = https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-librar ... ts-shelves

Fansubbing in the degenerative-quality VHS era or RealTimePlayer era was perfect - you saw enough of the show to enjoy it and spread the word. To torrent and re-upload a near-perfect digital copy of a copyrighted item time and time again is a whole new (damaging) world.

Streaming you can share a password with an account subscriber for a bit to watch all the anime someone will ever need right now in between better times and downtimes.

If media that is a bit different gets fansubbed and nobody buys a copy, all we're going to get is metric-driven, cast-your-net-wide audience generic crowdpleasers that are boring (like Hollywood). Netflix seem to be using their data for interesting shows nowadays - and is also investing in anime by bringing shows (anime, Jdrama etc) to global crowds. It's brilliant!

I agree with archiving and having some form of access to more obscure shows. I agree with archiving fansubbing efforts from the early days to depict old anime fandom. Theft of shows that are being simulcast is odd and needless. There's already far more hours of anime than hours we will be alive to watch it, alone. I would just enjoy what we have access to

PinkAppleJam wrote:

yusaku wrote:Thus, I am for fansubs being free because I would buy the stuff if I like it.

But... the stuff you like would not get made in the first place if no income is generated from viewers not contributing to stuff that gets fansubbed/scanlated and torrented...

If media that is a bit different gets fansubbed and nobody buys a copy, all we're going to get is metric-driven, cast-your-net-wide audience generic crowdpleasers that are boring (like Hollywood). Netflix seem to be using their data for interesting shows nowadays - and is also investing in anime by bringing shows (anime, Jdrama etc) to global crowds. It's brilliant!

There is a missing step here, I think. For certain styles of anime, an audience needs to be built in general before a paying audience can be grown from it. This was a big problem with anime in 90s Japan, especially pre-Evangelion. You had a certain group of dedicated fans who liked what they liked and would pay for a certain type of show, and even then, they only had the resources to support so many shows per season. You had a larger cultural aversion to otaku due to associations with Miyazaki the serial killer and Aum Shinrikyo discouraging Japanese people from joining anime fandom; there wasn't really much of an alternate market. So in practice, creators who wanted to make shows other than a certain type found that they really couldn't -- with a fixed number of otaku with fixed tastes, there was just no way to make it work practically. Distributing fansubs of these niche shows to areas where people had never heard of Miyazaki the serial killer or Aum Shinrikyo, who weren't familiar with the established tastes of Japanese fandom, was seen as one of the only ways to build an alternate market that might one day eventually pay. (Some directors even gave their informal support of fansubs for this very reason.)

I know that people like to laugh about the idea of giving away art as a form of "exposure", as when it is done incorrectly it just ends up being an elaborate scam from the artist's perspective, but there are examples in the anime industry's own history of this being exactly what they did to build a market. While Toei and Tatsunoko banged their heads on Hollywood's door to no avail trying to get someone to buy their work, American anime fandom was being built through grey-market UHF broadcasts of low-budget robot shows, given away for free to anyone who had a UHF receiver.

There are a few notable anime directors who had no domestic interest in Japan -- but when they started winning European film festival awards, they finally received the attention at home that had been impossible to get by simply putting out their work locally; the work was the same, but without that alternate route it would likely not have been viable.

I think that fansubs can still provide this route today -- by allowing anime that is far enough outside of the norms of existing anime fandom into the hands of a potential new market.

This is also where fans without money can be helpful, I think. By spreading these types of shows outside of the traditional anime fandom, they increase the likelihood that there will eventually be a paying market for them, even if those particular fans can never be that market themselves. (Maybe this is being a little idealistic?)

PinkAppleJam wrote:Fansubbing in the degenerative-quality VHS era or RealTimePlayer era was perfect - you saw enough of the show to enjoy it and spread the word. To torrent and re-upload a near-perfect digital copy of a copyrighted item time and time again is a whole new (damaging) world.

I think many people overbought the hype when it comes to torrents -- they are an incredibly fragile distribution system, because they need constant attention. No seeds, no distribution. A weird twist of this, sadly, is that the anime that most benefits from fansubbing is often the first to go extinct due to lack of seeds. There are many rarer anime that are basically extinct -- they have no legal translated version available, whatever fansubs did exist for them are no longer being seeded, and unless the original fansubbing group is still active, there is no obvious way to re-trace your steps to find an active seed, assuming that the files still exist at all. Unless someone happened to burn them to a long-term form of digital storage, they will likely be gone come the next computer upgrade.

PinkAppleJam wrote:I agree with archiving and having some form of access to more obscure shows. I agree with archiving fansubbing efforts from the early days to depict old anime fandom. Theft of shows that are being simulcast is odd and needless. There's already far more hours of anime than hours we will be alive to watch it, alone. I would just enjoy what we have access to

I suspect that the simulcast thieves are folks who find themselves stuck by a licensor sitting on a global license but only releasing it in one region. (I could be wrong on this, of course.)

The subtitlers themselves are a bit easier to explain, I think. Often these are a subset of fansubbers that I don't think have a formal name, but would more accurately be called "fansetters". They are the folks who really enjoy all the unexpected stuff you can do typeset-wise with modern subtitling software when you aren't restricted by legacy hardware requirements. In practice most commercial subtitling ignores all this stuff because they don't believe there is a market for "deluxe" subtitles beyond those that will play in a DVD player or TV streaming device, justifying the cost of having an extra set of subtitles. So the fansetters release these deluxe packages to try to get people excited for these types of subtitles and maybe generate enough demand for a commercial release that has them.

The problem I think is that where these two groups meet in the middle you end up with a haven for bootleggers. (^_^;)