What are you Watching?

[llj]

Original Gundam TV is still interesting, but there are some "mecha of the day" episodes that were filler-ish. There are also a number of campy elements lifted from super robot shows. Even though MSG is a landmark show, it still was in the process of formulating the "realistic robot" genre.

IMO the movies are as good a summary of the TV series as you'll get out of a compilation trilogy. They cut out a lot of the super-robot elements and campy stuff. Still, as Greg said, you do miss out on many of the smaller interactions, but the basic story is still told decently well without feeling rushed. I mean, taken altogether it's over 6 hours. There's still plenty of room to breathe here. And movie 3 in particular does actually flesh out certain elements in the final 3rd of the show that Tomino either felt were rushed or unsatisfactorily told. It also features a notable amount of new footage (as movies 1 and 2 mostly used the TV footage).

[greg]

I heard the TV shows were... painfully boring. Are you watching them subtitled? Worth a shot? I've been in a 70's mode lately. Even busted out a pair of bell bottoms yesterday. The excuse was Halloween but I will wear them again.

Oh, not at all! The story seems fuller, even thoug there's filler. The movies skipped stuff that didn't really further the plot, like when Garma's ex-fiancee tries to avenge his death by attacking the White Base (since when would the Zeon officers allow her onto bridge of the ship like that?), but as I said, it builds tension better instead of just constantly cutting to the action scenes like the movies did. I haven't finished it (I just finished disc 2, and I need to contact Bandai Enterainment about a replacement, grr), but I think it will explain the love triangle between Captain Bright, Mirai, and that corefighter jockey whatshisname dude. It was glossed over in the movies, but I imagine that the episodes will do a better job with it.

Other than that, it's what llj said. The movies reanimated some sequences to make them look better, ditched some of the dumber Gundam weapons like the ball & chain and that glowstick thingy (seemed redundant since the beam saber is the coolest anyway), and they redesigned some of the science to make it more believable. For example, when Amuro has no choice but to enter the Earth's atmosphere in the Gundam, the movie shows some cooling system built into the shield that keeps the Gundam from burning up. In the TV show, it whips out some magical clear plastic bag and puts it on. Silly. It's like those old B-grade SF movies where they are like, "It is time for us to do science, but the Geiger counters show much radiation. Come now, let us don our ANTI-RADIATION SUITS!" (As if there ever was such a thing.) But to be fair, Gundam set forth some very cool SF concepts, like colony cylinders that are so huge that they are self-supportive, as well as the proposed science behind the Minovsky particles.

I highly recommend getting the TV show, and it can be purchased on R1 DVDs for the fraction of the Japanese R2 DVDs, that's for sure.

[llj]

So I finished watching both Zeta Gundam and Gundam Seed recently. Obviously, I did not watch them back to back, but rather both on and off over the course of several weeks.

Gundam Seed is generally acknowledged as a fan favourite. It's easy to see why, with its cliffhanger endings to almost every episode, its emphasis on romantic pairings, and its tendency to keep introducing progressively more decked-out Gundams. It's very entertaining on a mainstream level and it manipulates audiences' emotions rather well. Characters are often neatly divided between "likeable" and "not likeable" and it's also very good at making unlikeable characters likeable too.

Yet, at the same time, I can't help but think that almost every Gundam betrays its inherent "anti-war" stance by being a little too exciting and dramatic for their own good. Gundam Seed is ESPECIALLY guilty of this. The Gundam battles are often big and "epic", and the large scale space battles are a visual feast for the eyes, full of gorgeous pink explosions and Gundams that shoot powerful and pretty rainbow lasers.

The only true exceptions to this tendency for Gundam shows to glorify war are perhaps 0080 and Zeta Gundam. (Though the original Mobile Suit Gundam does come close at times, it still had many moments where Amuro's Gundam and Char's various MS' are shown to be "cooler" than everything else and some of the battles are a little too exciting for it to be consistent with its anti-war theme)

It's interesting watching Zeta Gundam today. At one time, Zeta Gundam was considered the best of Gundam, but most of these people (generally, older Gundam fans) have been drowned out by younger fans decrying Zeta Gundam as "overrated" and "unexciting" and "Tomino's characters don't make any sense."

Right now, I don't know where I'd rank Zeta Gundam personally, but I do admire it for the very reasons many modern fans don't. It's totally pessimistic and unsentimental; there are few, if any battles one could describe as "epic" and there are almost zero battles one could really describe as "cathartic". They occur abruptly and end just as abruptly, and long-awaited showdowns often end unsatisfactorily. I really like that, it doesn't give the viewer a reason to cheer for someone to get their "just desserts"--which is much more in keeping with the anti-war stance Gundam shows often espouse but rarely ever truly abide by. And while Zeta Gundam does obviously have obligations to toy/model manufacturers by having a number of unique looking Gundams introduced every 10-15 episodes or so, I don't recall Zeta Gundam ever going out of the way to show the viewers how "cool" a mobile suit is. Even the Zeta Gundam itself, driven by Kamille, doesn't seem all that special other than the fact it transforms into a mini-ship. But it doesn't seem to give Kamille any really HUGE added advantage in battle. This is in stark contrast to Gundam Seed's mobile suits, which near the end of the series can take out legions of enemies with just one shot.

Zeta Gundam also doesn't get caught up in one on one rivalries. While many enemies do tend to gun for Kamille, a true one-on-one rivalry doesn't really develop. There is one character who would seem to be a rival at first, but he's way too crappy a pilot and he disappears for almost 20 episodes before returning near the end, only to end up getting killed rather handily by Kamille.

And unlike most mecha series or anime series in general, Zeta Gundam doesn't turn into a game of "which character will end up with who in the end." There is some romance, but they're either one sided or they end very abruptly during the series. There is no ongoing love triangle or anything of that sort of nature. While Four Murasame is definitely reminiscent of Lalah Sun, the difference here is that there aren't two guys fighting over her.

I can definitely see why Zeta Gundam doesn't connect with younger fans. It doesn't have a happy ending--it's not even bittersweet. It doesn't indulge in romantic pairing-offs. The battles play down the excitement factor and are portrayed in a very detached manner. There are few moments that make the viewer say "That felt good!". The "big name" mobile suits don't seem to do anything that special aside from the having nice visual designs. The characters are well-rounded, but few of them are actually what one might call "likeable"--which might play a part in why some fans may consider Tomino's characters to be hard to relate to. But I think his characters feel more like real people than most people would want to admit. It's a very pessimistic--maybe even cynical--series. And many fans today simply want a show to entertain them and be emotionally cathartic. I can understand that but I'm not particularly sympathetic to the view that a show is only "good" if it makes you "feel good."

I also have other thoughts about how Tomino writes women--something he is often criticized for. Without getting too in-depth into it...while I don't think he's ever going to win awards for feminism, I will say that his female characters are a lot more proactive than many fans say. And I don't think the women in the non-Tomino shows are really that much better in many cases. I'm trying to think of a woman in a non-Tomino Gundam show who truly had an active role in terms of battles and quite honestly I'm having a hard time thinking of any who were major characters. And I also think the Macross fans who criticize Tomino's women don't necessarily have solid ground to stand on, either...

[Daishikaze]

You summed up my feelings exactly. Its sad that Tomino gets so much crap thrown at him for doing what Gundam was supposed to do in Zeta. The arguments that shows like SEED (not bad) and Wing (not that good) are better shows is laughable to me simply because they both do what Gundam really wasn't meant to do, and they do it with impunity. SEED at least tries to be what Gundam was, but Wing? It doesn't seem to know what it wants to be, what everyones motives being vague and flip flopping almost every 10 episodes or so.

[davemerrill]

We're working our way through Zeta again ourselves, and what I'm taking from the show in terms of the female characters is that they're written from a strange, distant perspective. They're interesting characters, they aren't treated as inferiors or second class citizens or goddesses that must be put on pedestals, it's just that their actions and motivations seem to come from out of nowhere. It's as if Tomino knows what women are, but has never observed their behavior in real life.

[llj]

I'll at least give Gundam Wing credit for luring in female fans, even though the show to me really just feels like "Boy Band Gundam." As such, the show is really just an excuse to show off pretty boys and tease shonen-ai scenes.

I've yet to see Gundam 00, though on the surface it does seem to use the ol' "Pretty Boy Pilot Gang" trope again.

I'll probably get around to Victory Gundam sometime soon.

We're working our way through Zeta again ourselves, and what I'm taking from the show in terms of the female characters is that they're written from a strange, distant perspective. They're interesting characters, they aren't treated as inferiors or second class citizens or goddesses that must be put on pedestals, it's just that their actions and motivations seem to come from out of nowhere. It's as if Tomino knows what women are, but has never observed their behavior in real life.

Well, I think the most problematic character is Reccoa. She oscillates between self-sufficient and needy at the drop of a hat, and many of her speeches and actions seem highly contradictory. But then again, I've known women like that, too! (And men, for that matter)

Emma for the most part seems pretty consistent. She doesn't go on big pompous speeches about gender politics like Reccoa does. She's slightly conceited, thinking that Kamille is attracted to her when he isn't, but she's fairly consistent overall in terms of behaviour.

Fa is basically Frau Bow who can pilot a mobile suit (albeit on a mediocre level), but she thinks most of main male characters are pompous blowhards and she thinks women like Reccoa are flakes, and she'd probably be right on both accounts. She has several moments of pettiness, but these are usually shown as "being a teenager" moments. I suspect that Fa is probably closest to Tomino's own ideal--someone who's unpretentious and able to play various roles depending on the situation--mother, girlfriend, soldier, confidant. Whether you think that ideal is backwards or not depends on one's own gender politics.

Of course, there are the cyber-newtype women who are highly unpredictable, but I think that since they're all pretty insane, it's difficult to read them logically.

[greg]

Oh yeah, 00 looks pretty bad in the character design area, especially with that one guy who looks like a girl. I mean, Sirocco had hair like a ninny, but he was pretty badass at the same time. Even even the robots don't seem to be very cool in 00. Seed/Destiny/Astray at least have cool looking mecha. 00 seems to fall flat. I watched the first episode of 00 and didn't care for it.

I really like Zeta. Kamille is a stronger character than Amuro, I think. Kamille is immature at first, but he mans up and gains responsibilities more efficiently than Amuro does. Amuro is a stronger character in Zeta, too. I am not at all interested in watching the movie-fied Zeta movies. They have a happy ending without Kamille's sacrifice and subsequent tragic fate, thereby making them incompatible with Double Zeta.

Isn't Seed basically a rehash of Gundam (Amuro and Char), and Seed Destiny a rehash of Zeta (Kamille and Four)? I've seen comments from people who like Seed think that Destiny was crap. I saw an episode or two of one of these shows (can't remember which), and it was just androgynous, annoying characters amid cool animation (plus dramatically bouncing boobs). The only non-UC Gundam show I am interested in seeing is Gundam X. I've heard that one is good.

[llj]

Gundam Seed does lift several elements from original MSG, but ultimately it's more like a "former best friends on opposite sides of the war" kind of show. Oh, and they also have a pop idol character, so they grab from Macross as well.

Destiny gets criticized mostly for being heavily reliant on flashbacks and clip shows. Seed had about 5 episodes that could be considered recap episodes, but Destiny has reportedly 2 or 3 times that amount. But I can't really verify since I don't have much interest in Destiny, myself.

I'm going to make my way through Victory Gundam next, which is the only Tomino Gundam now I haven't seen (I did watch about half of ZZ Gundam a long time ago).

Turn A Gundam was really the last truly great Gundam IMO. I think in terms of characterization, it's a high water mark for the franchise. The characters are likeable and well rounded. They're emotionally nuanced. Tomino's writing of female characters reaches its maturity point, and they're rightly lauded by even Tomino critics as having the strongest and most memorable female characters of the Gundam franchise.

Greg, I kind of liked Kamille all the way through the show! He sort of represented that mid-80s attitude of angry, anti-authority youths that populated a lot of anime during that time. He does get more mature later on, but I have to say I did somewhat enjoy it when he tried to pick fights with superior officers and people older than him. He's definitely a lot more proactive as a character than Amuro was.

[greg]

Yes, "proactive." That is a good word to describe Kamille to set him apart from Amuro. After seeing his parents killed by the Titans right in front of him, that was enough to get him to grow up and strengthen his resolve.

Sad to see you give up on ZZ. The first 18 episodes or so are rather weak, but after that, it becomes a bona-fide Gundam series. Much better than I have faith for Seed of ever being. Spoiler: Sayla makes a return!

[Daishikaze]

Yes, "proactive." That is a good word to describe Kamille to set him apart from Amuro. After seeing his parents killed by the Titans right in front of him, that was enough to get him to grow up and strengthen his resolve.

Sad to see you give up on ZZ. The first 18 episodes or so are rather weak, but after that, it becomes a bona-fide Gundam series. Much better than I have faith for Seed of ever being. Spoiler: Sayla makes a return!

Agreed, I really enjoyed ZZ. It also has some of the best mech designs in the whole franchise IMO