The Old School Otaku Lounge

usamimi wrote:It's always been my opinion that Tenchi's "formula" was what spawned the popular harem-anime series formula, but it was UY that inspired the "dude constantly surrounded by ladies" idea, since it was really the first popular anime to do that.

I can see it from that standpoint - dude surrounded by ladies concept - though I guess what I have trouble getting my head around is that Tenchi and Ataru are the exact opposite, character-wise. Tenchi, surrounded by ladies, has the inability to "make a decision" towards which one he wishes to pursue a romantic relationship with and which are purely platonic. Ataru, on the other hand, tries to sleep with/grope practically every female he comes into contact with. If there is any dynamic to "which he will pick", it's a brief triangle between him, Shionobu and Lum. And as noted earlier, it's obvious he ends up with Lum: she's the only one who will willingly take him. Let's also take into account that Lum also has a set of her own suitors, in whom she's clearly not interested because of Ataru. To me, the character dynamics are way too different to say that there is any inspiration beyond a superficial level.

usamimi wrote:The first Tenchi OAV had some cool space ships and a few decent fight scenes, but for the most part, yeah...it's mostly a romantic comedy.

Totally agree. Especially the first OAV where everyone is being introduced, it's straight-up romantic comedy and situational comedy. While I might knock Tenchi for what it spawned, I will always say one of it's strengths in the second OAV was the introduction of the sci-fi elements (other than "This character is an alien pirate/princess/scientist!", I should clarify) and making the plot about more than "dude lives with all these chicks who want him and he still can't score." I think if the other harem series that came after it had kept something similar, I'd have a few less problems with the genre.

I liked the ship designs especially - almost like they were influenced by Legend of Galactic Heroes. But there was always this cool contrast of a highly technical exterior of the ship and the interiors, which retained a lot of the Shinto elements and had a lot of natural features. Big change from a lot of purely functional, clean room setting you get from a lot of other media when depicting space travel.

I think if you're comparing UY and TM you need to remember that UY is much LONGER than TM and thus there's certain aspects that you can't really use as basis for comparison. When you look at the INITIAL setup, you have:
-A "normal" guy who randomly gets thrown into a bizarre situation with aliens (in the first few episodes, Ataru's defining characteristic is that he is unlucky rather than his lechery, which becomes the primary focus later)
-A blue(ish) haired girl who flies and has energy powers, who is attracted to the main character and often bullies him
-A "good" girl who appears more "normal" and is also attracted to the main character (originally), who has a temper problem and can cause significant collateral damage when angered

The guy is obviously Ataru, but is also Tenchi, the first girl is Lum, but also Ryoko, and the second girl is Shinobu and Ayeka. If you watch the first season exclusively, you'll see that there was more of a triangle relationship (the OP even has Ataru going back and forth between the girls and often trying to go towards/away from them depending on the circumstances). The "better" aspect of UY is that it is a full ensemble, so it SEEMS like less of a "harem" show because even though more girls get added, it also adds a ton of GUYS to the equation. (I think this is one area that Takahashi excels at and may be a reason for much of her success, she does a good job of melding male and female harems into ONE show)

But yeah, LATER UY (kind of like Ranma, and maybe Inu Yasha, I wore out on the latter I admit) becomes something of a caricature of itself. I think it still works, but much like later DBZ (and GT) is not really indicative of the early episodes, the same is true for UY, and probably any long running series really.

Heero wrote:I think if you're comparing UY and TM you need to remember that UY is much LONGER than TM and thus there's certain aspects that you can't really use as basis for comparison. When you look at the INITIAL setup, you have:
-A "normal" guy who randomly gets thrown into a bizarre situation with aliens (in the first few episodes, Ataru's defining characteristic is that he is unlucky rather than his lechery, which becomes the primary focus later)
-A blue(ish) haired girl who flies and has energy powers, who is attracted to the main character and often bullies him
-A "good" girl who appears more "normal" and is also attracted to the main character (originally), who has a temper problem and can cause significant collateral damage when angered

The guy is obviously Ataru, but is also Tenchi, the first girl is Lum, but also Ryoko, and the second girl is Shinobu and Ayeka. If you watch the first season exclusively, you'll see that there was more of a triangle relationship (the OP even has Ataru going back and forth between the girls and often trying to go towards/away from them depending on the circumstances). The "better" aspect of UY is that it is a full ensemble, so it SEEMS like less of a "harem" show because even though more girls get added, it also adds a ton of GUYS to the equation. (I think this is one area that Takahashi excels at and may be a reason for much of her success, she does a good job of melding male and female harems into ONE show)

But yeah, LATER UY (kind of like Ranma, and maybe Inu Yasha, I wore out on the latter I admit) becomes something of a caricature of itself. I think it still works, but much like later DBZ (and GT) is not really indicative of the early episodes, the same is true for UY, and probably any long running series really.

YESSSS, this this this! In the early stages of the UY manga, I believe that Takahashi even said that the story was originally going to be more focused on the triangle between Ataru, Lum, and Shinobu (in fact, if you look at some of the very first pieces she drew promotionally, Shinobu was drawn front and center: http://www.furinkan.com/uy/gallery/taka ... umic16.jpg) It's my understanding that originally, Shinobu was supposed to be the one Ataru was meant to chose, and that Lum would just be an aggressor. But Lum was so popular with the fans that she changed her mind quickly.

And yeah, Takahashi definitely has that issue when it comes to a long-running series--they end up sort of becoming a caricature of how the series first started out and/or their established character traits. (Of course, that happens with a LOT of long-running series, like you said.)

So while the similarities may seem superficial; I think Heero hit the nail on the head that, at it's core, they have a lot more in common than some might give them credit for.

Not that that takes away anything from either, mind you. UY and Tenchi are both considered classics for good reasons, obviously. I don't want to come off as saying one is undeniably better than the other or anything, but I honestly do think that UY was a big inspiration to Tenchi and most other similar titles that came directly after UY.

I liked the ship designs especially - almost like they were influenced by Legend of Galactic Heroes. But there was always this cool contrast of a highly technical exterior of the ship and the interiors, which retained a lot of the Shinto elements and had a lot of natural features. Big change from a lot of purely functional, clean room setting you get from a lot of other media when depicting space travel.

I agree! Tenchi had a lot of that Shinto aesthetic peppered throughout the series, which tied so many of the designs together. I always liked that. It was very different and cool, and I'm hard pressed to think of any series before that that tried doing similar.

usamimi wrote:[ It's my understanding that originally, Shinobu was supposed to be the one Ataru was meant to chose, and that Lum would just be an aggressor. But Lum was so popular with the fans that she changed her mind quickly.

Ah! I'm glad that you are such an UY fan to have insight on this. The reason why I gave up on the UY manga was that Lum seemed to be such a "psycho bitch from hell" and was not at all cute like she is in the anime (which, of course, came after the manga). I only collected the first two or three volumes of UY by Viz, but it seemed that the obvious choice in the manga was Shinobu, whereas in the anime it seemed to be Lum.

I still am unclear if the series ever explained why Lum apparently loves Ataru, since she didn't seem to think much of him until he accidentally "proposed" to her. Or was she truly attracted to him at first, and used his mumbling about marriage as a trap to ensare him?

That reminds me: I have a picture of the UY/Ranma 2-in-1 omnibus manga saved to my cell phone's micro SD card. I need to yank that off there and share it. I was going to do that last night, but I taught a class and forgot about that.

It's been a while since I read the manga, but if I recall, I think Lum's attachment to Ataru in the manga was, at first, simply a feeling of entitlement or ownership. (He proposed to HER, after all, that means he belongs to her now! Not some common earth girl!) Also the whole mindset of "You can't back down from this marriage proposal! I'd be a laughingstock back on my homeplanet!" sort of thing? That's what I recall thinking, I'll have to go flip through the manga again at some point and re-read those first few chapters, heh.

Heero wrote:I think if you're comparing UY and TM you need to remember that UY is much LONGER than TM and thus there's certain aspects that you can't really use as basis for comparison. When you look at the INITIAL setup, you have:
-A "normal" guy who randomly gets thrown into a bizarre situation with aliens (in the first few episodes, Ataru's defining characteristic is that he is unlucky rather than his lechery, which becomes the primary focus later)
-A blue(ish) haired girl who flies and has energy powers, who is attracted to the main character and often bullies him
-A "good" girl who appears more "normal" and is also attracted to the main character (originally), who has a temper problem and can cause significant collateral damage when angered

The guy is obviously Ataru, but is also Tenchi, the first girl is Lum, but also Ryoko, and the second girl is Shinobu and Ayeka. If you watch the first season exclusively, you'll see that there was more of a triangle relationship (the OP even has Ataru going back and forth between the girls and often trying to go towards/away from them depending on the circumstances). The "better" aspect of UY is that it is a full ensemble, so it SEEMS like less of a "harem" show because even though more girls get added, it also adds a ton of GUYS to the equation. (I think this is one area that Takahashi excels at and may be a reason for much of her success, she does a good job of melding male and female harems into ONE show)

But yeah, LATER UY (kind of like Ranma, and maybe Inu Yasha, I wore out on the latter I admit) becomes something of a caricature of itself. I think it still works, but much like later DBZ (and GT) is not really indicative of the early episodes, the same is true for UY, and probably any long running series really.

usamimi wrote:YESSSS, this this this!

Heero brings up some excellent points and I guess whenever the conversation arose, I only looked at each as the sum of its parts and made the comparison.

usamimi wrote:Not that that takes away anything from either, mind you. UY and Tenchi are both considered classics for good reasons, obviously. I don't want to come off as saying one is undeniably better than the other or anything, but I honestly do think that UY was a big inspiration to Tenchi and most other similar titles that came directly after UY.

Yeah, sorry - I hope this wasn't a huge thread detour and I don't really mean to detract from any Tenchi love, as this is the thread. I'd just kept hearing these ties to the two series and never had it really explained to me. It's good to get schooled.

usamimi wrote:I agree! Tenchi had a lot of that Shinto aesthetic peppered throughout the series, which tied so many of the designs together. I always liked that. It was very different and cool, and I'm hard pressed to think of any series before that that tried doing similar.

I can only grasp at straws for shows that did it before Tenchi and that is probably my poor memory working against me. Even if you look afterwards though - it's still an uncommon aesthetic. The only one that immediately springs to mind is Gasaraki (and we should all forget Gasaraki).

SignOfZeta wrote:I'll always love my Tenchi OVA LDs but I have no interest in the Pretty Sammy pedophile stuff, the 5th alternate universe, etc. There are better shows to watch.

OMG this! When I first saw the Pretty Sammy spinoff and saw her jiggling breasts (on a prepubescent character), I was genuinely mortified and never bothered with Tenchi again. To me that was the start of my anti-moé feeling.

The original Tenchi 6-part OAV animation was stunning, and was IMHO the best out of Pioneer's group-output, seconded by Moldiver. Real quality stuff. I can see the parallels being made with UY, though could the characteristics be applied from any anime? Shy main guy, devilish female, rival girlfriend, young innocent girl more mature than everyone... the whole tsunderé, moé (etc) character types play up a lot in any anime