Sexism in early anime fandom

The roughly mid-90's and earlier (generally pre-Toonami, pre-anime boom) era of anime & manga fandom: early cons, clubs, tape trading, Nth Generation VHS fansubs, old magazines & fanzines, fandubs, ancient merchandise, rec.arts.anime, and more!
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usamimi
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

Post by usamimi »

The thing with anime is that it is a medium & not a genre--there are plenty of genres I do not care for, many of which are pretty popular with other groups. People think being an anime fan means you need to have a love of ALL anime, which I've never really understood. I love certain MOVIES, I don't like EVERY movie. So it's much easier to make friends with folks who like the same genres as you do. Back in the Before Times, this was a lot harder, since anime was more niche. Now that it's not, it's a lot easier to find folks who SPECIFICALLY like all the same tiles & genres you do.

Gatekeeping, sexism, harassment, stalking, all these things still happen & still exist, sadly. When I 1st started my podcast, I literally had some comments that basically boiled down to "oh, I'd be interested in this, but I don't wanna listen to A GIRL talk about anime." Hell, just recently someone left me an iTunes review that said I needed "more male perspectives" on my podcast....even tho I've never shyed away from having men on the show! Little things like this happen quite often, and its viewed as normal and ok by some, even tho it's just more examples of casual sexism. I won't go into the grosser/worse things I've had to put up with.

Women, femme, & nonbinary folks have been attempting to do panels about how our communities can be more kind, more mindful, and more inclusive for years now, but if certain people don't want to listen, it's hard for anything to change, sadly. While things are definitely an improvement than the past, it's far from perfect. The best thing we can do is try to set good examples for others, and if you see bad behavior---especially from your friends, family, or people around you--to call out their behavior & tell them it's not cool. Little changes add up over time, and change starts at home, so to speak!
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DKop
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

Post by DKop »

usamimi wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:46 pm The thing with anime is that it is a medium & not a genre--there are plenty of genres I do not care for, many of which are pretty popular with other groups. People think being an anime fan means you need to have a love of ALL anime, which I've never really understood. I love certain MOVIES, I don't like EVERY movie. So it's much easier to make friends with folks who like the same genres as you do.

When I 1st started my podcast, I literally had some comments that basically boiled down to "oh, I'd be interested in this, but I don't wanna listen to A GIRL talk about anime." Hell, just recently someone left me an iTunes review that said I needed "more male perspectives" on my podcast....even tho I've never shyed away from having men on the show!
My question for people who don't know anything about anime or want to know where to start I ask them "ok, what do you like now?" Because anime is a medium, there's as many genres for it as there are for live action shows. From there if your knowledgeable about what anime is out there, you can easily suggest to them what to check out that is in their ally.

It's interesting for you to say that you got all this criticism when you started podcasting, but you got your community built up where you're far more successful than you were when you first started. I had you on my podcast years back as a guest to talk about stuff we collect/horde lol when you were first starting out. Regardless of what you may say about the criticism you've gotten, the results show that you are doing far better than you realize. I don't see you as the victim. Yea things do need to get better, but seeing your blessings now in your work and your listener base is something to take into account.
George W wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:47 pm What seems to be missing here is a general understanding: fandom (whether it is Science Fiction, Fantasy, or Anime) is cliquy.
That's just how human nature works, consciously or unconsciously. I'm guilty of it, and not really feeling guilty about it. People are made to gravitate to people who share the same views, interests and goals. I'm not against cliques because their just little sub socials in a larger social circle, but at the same time you don't act better than someone else. I might be friendly to people at cons that I do panels with and vice versa, but I don't expect to be in every friend circle to gain a sense of belonging and value, they can take me or leave me, I got my own stuff to do in fandom. The connections and friends I do have through fandom I count them as blessings in my life, and very thankful to have them.
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usamimi
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

Post by usamimi »

DKop wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:21 am It's interesting for you to say that you got all this criticism when you started podcasting, but you got your community built up where you're far more successful than you were when you first started. I had you on my podcast years back as a guest to talk about stuff we collect/horde lol when you were first starting out. Regardless of what you may say about the criticism you've gotten, the results show that you are doing far better than you realize. I don't see you as the victim. Yea things do need to get better, but seeing your blessings now in your work and your listener base is something to take into account.
Just because someone might have what you perceive as "success" does not mean any sexism they encounter somehow doesn't count?? Someone having a certain amount of followers on social media or whatever never gives anyone free reign to say & do shitty things to them. (And like I said--this is just the stuff I'm comfortable with talking about in a public forum. I've been sent much worse than this, and now you know why I no longer allow DMs from people i don't also follow.)
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George W
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

Post by George W »

[/quote]
That's just how human nature works, consciously or unconsciously. I'm guilty of it, and not really feeling guilty about it. People are made to gravitate to people who share the same views, interests and goals. I'm not against cliques because their just little sub socials in a larger social circle, but at the same time you don't act better than someone else. I might be friendly to people at cons that I do panels with and vice versa, but I don't expect to be in every friend circle to gain a sense of belonging and value, they can take me or leave me, I got my own stuff to do in fandom. The connections and friends I do have through fandom I count them as blessings in my life, and very thankful to have them.
[/quote]

If that is how human nature works, we need to work to be better humans.

I agree with the others - I like some Anime. Some I don't appreciate.

For example, Gal Force - Love it. Watched it so much.
Macross - same.
Orguss - same.
Vampire Hunter D - same.

But some anime doesn't appeal to me. The wide reaching historic films for example.

That doesn't make me bad, or evil. It is what it is.

When we exclude people because they don't align with our particular likes, we lose those voices, and I think that is a terrible mistake. Because there is value in those voices, those opinions, which are just as deeply held as our own.
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

Post by Captain_EO »

On the plus side, I think people are much more knowledgeable about these issues nowadays, and can actively work to make our communities a welcoming place. Be it Anime, Science-Fiction, technology, or really any field that has been traditionally male-dominated. We can all imagine a stereotypical "Comic Book Guy" drilling a woman on her nerd expertise (i.e. "If you're such a fan, what did Rick say to Lisa fifteen minutes into episode 34 of Robotech??" While users like that still exist, I think a lot of us realize not to be "that guy"... Women have always been a big part of the anime community- be it fans or the original industry figures in Japan.

As members of this forum, we all love the old-school fandom; and as George W said in his first post in this thread, it largely was a welcoming atmosphere. But looking back and retrospectively seeing how we've improved is also productive for us to do. I'm of the belief that you could really only know the extent of such incidents if you *are* a woman, so I think anecdotes from members like usamimi are key here.

And to aurechan, you have some decent places to start with your essay project now- If you want, I'd also recommend looking into female Trekkies' experiences in their fandom back in the day, as that was a time when women were really first getting into Sci-fi in large numbers.
For the record, whenever I think of old-school anime fandom, I do think of it as having a sizeable population of both men and women. Take the OtakuWorld webmasters for example, among others. I could go on about this point but I don't want to make this post longer than it already is.
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NorthernKaleCity
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

Post by NorthernKaleCity »

To touch on George's reply, fans can be clique-y when it comes to anime. I avoid those people, not because of what they are, they too are fans in general, but because of WHO they are, a group of people who probably aren't interested in forming lasting friendships and relationships that are not in their immediate inner circle. They're not wrong in keeping their social circles closely knit, which is what I referred to in my own thoughts, but you can't hate them for it, either. As much as we want to belong, there are going to be certain groups you should avoid. Trying to belong in a group that doesn't want you there in the first place should not be a priority for you, especially if they call you a noob when you're starting out.

The effort and love you put in to your passion should be validation enough for you to belong, but we all know it isn't. Find validaition within yourself. That's really the only validation you need.

DKop, Mbanu and DaveMerill shared good points about how some women began their lives in this medium of anime as relative nobodies, but whom have accrued wonderful success not because they're women, but because of their hard work, their dedication to the fandom as a whole, to the crazy amounts of years of research they invest, to what overall makes them WHO they are, wonderful success stories whether it be in a group or in the community as a whole. Captain EO brings up a good point as well, that only women should know how that feels. That's important to note, as well.

But Usamimi is right in bringing up the fact that as the curator of a podcast, I'm sure there have been countless times perverts and assholes, and probably even women, have reached out just to make ugly comments about anything, just to make her feel uncomfortable. What she went through could be brought up to light, but that's her decision to make and if she feels the need to share that.

I'm enjoying the conversations back and forth, with great points of view from all sides, and perhaps that's what this thread is made to invoke—good conversation in what we went through. It's nice to be able to talk about it.
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usamimi
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Re: Sexism in early anime fandom

Post by usamimi »

Since this thread began as Aurechan asking for examples of women's experiences & it's gotten a bit off-course, I'm going to lock this thread for now. If any members would like to help Aurechan in her studies with examples of their lived experiences, please send her a private message!
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