The Old School Otaku Lounge

Here's the problem: Kelts was at NYCC. That's the convention that we coined the term 'anime ghetto' for. Perhaps he should visit a convention that isn't a Reed corporate show - maybe an actual anime convention, imagine that - and note how attendance at these actual anime conventions has been increasing every year.

davemerrill wrote:note how attendance at these actual anime conventions has been increasing every year.

True, but hasn't everyone on here complained about how these cons don't even focus on anime itself anymore, but rather Youtube talking heads, Bronies, video games, and that one show you all find annoying?

The article seems to address that--it mentions how NYCC is a convention "with a smidgen of anime and manga on the side."

Another quote from the article:

But gripes about skimpy anime and manga offerings this year reached me even before I received my press pass. “I’m boycotting (NYCC),” one local Asian-culture journalist and anime and manga aficionado told me. “A lot of us are. They don’t care about anime fans anymore, it’s obvious.”

And after that:

“We’ve not done the job we need to do courting (the anime industry),” admitted ReedPop’s global vice president and NYCC show manager, Lance Festerman. Festerman met me in a private office several meters above the Con’s pulsing maze of dealer booths and fans. “I think this year in particular, we’ve had kind of a dearth of anime content. I don’t think we’ve put enough emphasis on developing the relationships that are necessary to land the content that’s going to ‘wow’ things. And that’s a commitment on our part. We need to recommit to that fan base.”

NYAF was launched in the late 2000s, just as the anime industry, and the global economy, were going into a tailspin, Festerman explained. The old model of physical sales was disintegrating, and the new digital-delivery model had not yet been monetized. “(NYAF) just wasn’t working from a business perspective. It was great for the fans, but it wasn’t enough premium content. The show was turning into a raft of (independent) dealers selling cat-ears and swords and kimonos. That’s fine, but that’s not premium. We need screenings, guests, large booths promoting games. Cat-ears are important, but they’re not exclusive content.”

After-hour chatter among anime-industry veterans and journalists in bars adjacent to the Javits bordered on being bitter. “One of the biggest artists in the business offered to come this year,” a prominent editor told me, “but the NYCC staff had no idea who he was and dropped the ball.”

It's good that they realize they've been terrible about it. That was something that I saw many of my NYC friends gripe about concerning NYCC--that compared to NYAF, it was a bland experience; and if they'd wanted to go to something that was mostly about American fandoms, they'd just go to SDCC. (At least SDCC tends to have at least one or two interesting Japanese guests most of the time.) And like you said, it's bad enough that some anime conventions are quickly turning into "pop-culture/internet culture" conventions rather than strictly anime...for bigger conventions to have ZERO anime/manga representation is even more depressing. :/ The only anime/manga stuff I knew for sure happened at NYCC was that Viz tried to really promote Ranma 1/2's re-release while they were there....bless them.

Anime has and always been more of a cult phenomenon. It flirted with mainstream acceptance a couple of times but anyone who's been around long enough knew that those flirtations were cyclical and dependent on any number of marketing factors. Right now we're back to a period of "regression to the mean" which is to say that the bandwagoners have jumped off and moved onto something else now. It's still a bigger fanbase than it was 15 0r 20 years ago, but the people still watching anime today who aren't into the cosplay, or social aspect of anime fandom generally tend to keep their enjoyment of anime as a mostly private hobby.

greg wrote:

davemerrill wrote:note how attendance at these actual anime conventions has been increasing every year.

True, but hasn't everyone on here complained about how these cons don't even focus on anime itself anymore, but rather Youtube talking heads, Bronies, video games, and that one show you all find annoying?

People here have been complaining about conventions in a vague, general, "these kids today" way.

However, specific conventions like Otakon have been focused very tightly on Japanese animation & related media, and have been increasing attendance every year. AWA didn't have one MLP panel this year, and our numbers went up by three thousand. If anime is "losing its cachet" in America, somebody needs to tell the people who keep coming to anime conventions, because they didn't get the memo.

The only conclusions Kelts can safely draw from his NYCC experience are conclusions about NYCC, and trying to extrapolate what happens at NYCC out into some larger statement about fandom as a whole, or America as a whole, or anime fandom in America as a whole, simply aren't supported.

davemerrill wrote:

greg wrote:

davemerrill wrote:note how attendance at these actual anime conventions has been increasing every year.

True, but hasn't everyone on here complained about how these cons don't even focus on anime itself anymore, but rather Youtube talking heads, Bronies, video games, and that one show you all find annoying?

AWA didn't have one MLP panel this year, and our numbers went up by three thousand. If anime is "losing its cachet" in America, somebody needs to tell the people who keep coming to anime conventions, because they didn't get the memo.

(full disclosure, I realize this is an EXTREMELY limited sample, and I did not attend AWA 2013)
Here's a video shot at AWA 2013
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsrFm3JOv7c

Applying a VERY liberal standard to what constitutes an "anime" costume (if I didn't recognize it, I ignored it entirely if really vague, or counted it as "anime" if it looked "vaguely Japanese costume-ish, one exception being the obvious "furry", who ironically appears to be some kind of dragon)
There's nearly twice as many focus shots (not counting wide pans across the crowd, because I'm not THAT bored) of American comics/tv shows/movies/video games as anime costumes. (things like Pokemon/Yugi-Oh, counted as "anime", things like "Devil May Cry" as video game, feel free to nit pick my video game variance) This also only counts the HUGE US comics group as "1" cosplay shot. (altho there was a pretty good sized "Sword Art Online" group too)

I only point this out, because about 5 years ago, anime COMPANIES were pointing at increasing con attendance of proof of "anime fans" while pointing to their sales as proof of "all anime fans are pirates". I said then, as I said now, there are literally TONS of people that ATTEND anime cons that have absolutely ZERO interest in anime. I'm not necessarily disputing your impression of what the cons are trying to focus on, I'm merely pointing out that increasing attendance in today's convention environment does NOT equate to "strong ANIME fandom".

Until we invent the Fan-O-Meter(tm) that accurately judges each human being's precise Fandom Quotient(tm), the metric I'm using is, People Who Paid Money To Attend An Anime Con. I can't tell them what to wear, I can't read their minds, I can't give them all a pop quiz. All I know is, they shelled out $40 and spent 3 days of their life at an anime con. They dressed up like anime characters and they got autographs from anime voice actors and they bought anime merchandise and they lined up to watch Japanese cartoons on the big screen, and there were more of them there this year - more cash-paying customers - than there were last year. Maybe that's not the most precise measurement known to science, but it's all we got.

I don't see that a YouTube video is a judge of anything other than who was parading around in front of some random cameraperson in the lobby of the Waverly - which I might point out was not a controlled, convention-specific area, so if you had a mind to show up in your Captain America outfit and wander around the lobby floor without buying an AWA badge, you could (that's changing next year, BTW).

If you're judging anime fandom by what costumes people are wearing, then by your definition I am not an anime fan; I don't wear anime costumes or cat ears or ninja swords or Naruto headbands or school uniforms or yukata. My T-shirt has Sluggo from "Nancy" on it. What in the world am I doing at an anime convention?

So that's my metric: customers. More of them; not just at AWA, but at Otakon, and at Anime North, which has sold out of 3-day passes for the past two years and continues to sell more 1 and 2 day passes every year. I can't tell you if manga sales are up (actually I can; they are), I can't tell you if Viz or Crunchyroll or Funimation are doing better this year (they're kinda quiet about stuff like that) but I can tell you that more people are coming to anime cons, at least the anime cons I pay attention to.

Well, I know what Heero means to say. Sure one video is anecdotal, but someone who hasn't attended could assume that from watching coverage of such an anime convention, the majority of cosplayers would represent characters from anime. If AWA has no MLP panels or panels for that other show that is often complained about ---what's it called? Homespun?--- then that con sure seems stronger than other such anime cons, from what I'm reading.

davemerrill wrote:so if you had a mind to show up in your Captain America outfit and wander around the lobby floor without buying an AWA badge, you could (that's changing next year, BTW).

From my limited con experience, the lobby at the cons I attended were open to anybody, and it was beyond those doors is where a badge must be shown to enter. Will they restrict access to the front doors of the building?

Sure, I get what Heero's saying, that people who come to anime cons may be fans of other things in addition to anime. Anime had a decade of being pushed as a pop culture phenomena, so it attracted people who may not be as super dedicated as we are. I don't particularly have a problem with that. I mean, these are mass media cartoons meant to entertain everybody, not the super elite such as ourselves.

Somebody might watch that YouTube video and get a distorted picture of what AWA is all about? Well, that's life. AWA didn't produce that video, which is a 4 minute video, half of which is credits and the host talking at the camera, hardly an accurate representation of three days worth of convention. Anybody can post whatever they want on YouTube, and AWA isn't responsible for videos they don't make or conclusions people draw from media AWA didn't release.

I don't see that Heero is addressing my points at all, which is that Kelts' suggestions about the state of anime fandom in America are unsupported by facts. AWA's attendance numbers (as well as Otakon's attendance and AN's attendance) are facts that support my conclusion, and YouTube videos of cosplayers are more or less irrelevant to this discussion.

...

I'm not sure how they intend to secure the Waverly lobby, but I do know it's been discussed. The convention center and the hotel are adjacent to a shopping mall - heck, the Cobb Galleria Convention Center used to be a shopping mall itself- and theoretically from one end of the facility to the other is public space that people can move through without convention admission. So if you wanted to wander around AWA and see costumers without buying a badge, you could easily do so.

Personally I don't have a problem with it; having lots of costumers in public spaces is great event advertising and if you spend five minutes among the crowds, the first thing you're going to want to do is buy a badge and be 'part of the con'. Antagonizing people who just want to hang out in the lobby and chat with friends isn't a good way to build goodwill in the community.

Of course if you are going to show up in a giant cosplay crowd and take over the hotel lobby for your photoshoot, you ought to buy a badge. That's enough of a convention event that it ought to require admission. Perhaps they can work up a rule that says costuming is prima facie evidence of intent to participate in the convention and as such requires admission.