Anime Girls: Then and Now

[danth]

I found this image (warning:semi-NSFW) online and thought it was pretty cool, and illustrative of the differences in popular styles of the 80's as opposed to today. I posted the image on Reddit to see what people would think. Too my surprise, much rage ensued. I thought the image was neutral, but pretty much everyone there thought it was an attack on new anime, and that the images were cherry picked.

Here's the reddit link, if anyone is interested to see the reaction.

[greg]

I like how one person put it, "You are literally worse than Obama Hitler." That was funny. Yeah, it gets rather touchy. I think that the image was fairly accurate, because strong characters like Saber from F/SN do not represent the majority of anime girls these days.

[Heero]

I found this image (warning:semi-NSFW) online and thought it was pretty cool, and illustrative of the differences in popular styles of the 80's as opposed to today. I posted the image on Reddit to see what people would think. Too my surprise, much rage ensued. I thought the image was neutral, but pretty much everyone there thought it was an attack on new anime, and that the images were cherry picked.

Here's the reddit link, if anyone is interested to see the reaction.

I think the point would likely stand anyway, but it's definitely hand-picked (maybe not "cherry" picked). I think it would be better to make it with 10-20 "top" shows from each side, as opposed to the obviously "random" shows that are used. I'm also a little amused that you have a pretty obvious bias for Masakazu Katsura.

[davemerrill]

I think that image says a lot more about whoever put it together than it does about the state of Japanese cartoons at any one point in time. It's a broad field. You can find examples of slutty male-gaze anime females from 1970 and wholesome strong females from 2012, or vice versa.

[Ender424]

I think that image says a lot more about whoever put it together than it does about the state of Japanese cartoons at any one point in time. It's a broad field. You can find examples of slutty male-gaze anime females from 1970 and wholesome strong females from 2012, or vice versa.

I agree. It's easy to pick on newer anime since so much more is available to us nowadays as opposed to back then so it maybe a bit more challenging to find the more quality titles from the pile of lackluster ones but there definitely have been some strong female characters in recent times.
I'm partial to Queen Kei myself:

[llj]

It's hard to say. Character designs certainly have changed, so even if you took the least "loli" anime made in, say, 2012, they still look quite different from stuff made in the 1980s. I find that Sunrise and Bones' shows usually strike a nice balance between being modern while "still not moe". There weren't any anime back in the 1980s that were about "cute girls doing cute things". There were romances, magical girl shows, even harems in the 1980s, but "cute girls doing cute things" just wasn't an anime genre back then. So yes, there is a legitimate argument that trends have changed over the years.

On the other hand, the seeds for a lot of later anime trends were actually planted in the 1980s. Nobody really knew how big an impact Cream Lemon would actually be. Its influence spans more than just hentai--you can see its influence in the creation of "moe shows for moe fans" and the aforementioned "cute girls doing cute things" genre.

[danth]

"You are literally worse than Obama Hitler."

That was my favorite comment!

I think the point would likely stand anyway, but it's definitely hand-picked (maybe not "cherry" picked). I think it would be better to make it with 10-20 "top" shows from each side, as opposed to the obviously "random" shows that are used. I'm also a little amused that you have a pretty obvious bias for Masakazu Katsura.

Totally agree; I think if you literally took the top 20 shows by ratings from certain years and compared them, you'd see the same kind of trend. I didn't create the image, but yeah, all Katsura's stuff is there; Video Girl Ai, Iria, and I think some girl from DNA^2.

I think that image says a lot more about whoever put it together than it does about the state of Japanese cartoons at any one point in time. It's a broad field. You can find examples of slutty male-gaze anime females from 1970 and wholesome strong females from 2012, or vice versa.

I think you're trying to draw a false equivalency here. Sure there are a couple Moe-type girls from the 70's or 80's, and some strong, well drawn female leads in anime from the last 10 years. That doesn't mean that there isn't a shitload more anime now about very young, very non-badass, and very bug-eyed girls. The whole "well there was Cream Lemon back then and there's Black Lagoon now so it's all the same" argument doesn't make much sense to me.

It's hard to say. Character designs certainly have changed, so even if you took the least "loli" anime made in, say, 2012, they still look quite different from stuff made in the 1980s. I find that Sunrise and Bones' shows usually strike a nice balance between being modern while "still not moe". There weren't any anime back in the 1980s that were about "cute girls doing cute things". There were romances, magical girl shows, even harems in the 1980s, but "cute girls doing cute things" just wasn't an anime genre back then. So yes, there is a legitimate argument that trends have changed over the years.

On the other hand, the seeds for a lot of later anime trends were actually planted in the 1980s. Nobody really knew how big an impact Cream Lemon would actually be. Its influence spans more than just hentai--you can see its influence in the creation of "moe shows for moe fans" and the aforementioned "cute girls doing cute things" genre.

I entirely agree on your first point, and hadn't even considered your second point.

[llj]

Genre tastes have changed too. Not just in Japan, but also the U.S.

Seinen action shows used to be very popular in North America, but some time during the 2000s a bunch of new fans got into anime and were more into stuff like Clannad. Not dogging Clannad by any means, but that show would NEVER have made anyone's list of favourites were we still in the 90s. There is a larger market for all-girls shows in both Japan and the U.S. now, and not even all-girls shows of the shoujo variety. They're otaku-oriented all-girl shows, so they are naturally inclined to more "moe" character designs.

A lot of people like to blame the industry rather than the market for trends they don't like, but I tend to believe the market dictates the trends. The trends we see today are the prevailing trends of the average anime watcher, both in Japan and the West.

I see it much in the same way I do with Hollywood. I don't share the mainstream public's fascination with superhero movies and CGI blockbusters, but I have to accept that this is the way the market dictates what we see as mainstream entertainment.

[greg]

Well, I sure dig superhero movies.... GOOD ones like The Avengers, not bad ones like the recent Spider-Man. But yeah, the make what they think they can sell. If people waste money on stupid Michael Bay crap, then that's what they will make more of. These days, movie makers are trying to just rehash and remake popular movies and shows from back when entertainment was good. Transformers, G.I. Joe, Karate Kid, Total Recall, The Thing, Prometheus (which tried to cash in on Alien fans but only infuriated them), and even rumors of a remake of a Back To The Future movie (puke). So there's no real innovation and risk-taking when the economy is in shambles. Studios make what they know they can make money on, even if it does suck. They're just giving us what they think we want to see, and as long as the sheeple keep paying money for the trash, they'll keep making it.

So, they make moeblob anime because it sells. It's just a sad reality.

[davemerrill]

I think you're trying to draw a false equivalency here. Sure there are a couple Moe-type girls from the 70's or 80's, and some strong, well drawn female leads in anime from the last 10 years. That doesn't mean that there isn't a shitload more anime now about very young, very non-badass, and very bug-eyed girls. The whole "well there was Cream Lemon back then and there's Black Lagoon now so it's all the same" argument doesn't make much sense to me.

I actually think the image is drawing a false equivalency. Well, that's probably giving the image too much credit. The image is not an accurate representation of, well, anything other than "here's some anime girls from old shows, and here's some anime girls from new shows". It addresses nothing else - nothing about target audiences, nothing about marketing, nothing about ratings, nothing about demographics, nothing about how the industry has changed in 30 years.

If the image wishes to make some kind of concrete statement, then the image should make it. This image does not.